The cost of living in 2024....

[alarmguy]

That means he would have to make $81,000 today to match the $9,600 he made in 1969. Which is close to what a lot of entry level ME's are getting.

Yeah, but he went on to saying a house was 27,000 but didnt adjust for inflation on that one. I read his comment as
"GMFan said:
Adjusted for inflation:
Starting salary in ‘69: $81,145
5 yr college in ‘69: $42,278
Average cost of house in ‘72: $27,600

Not sure what you paid for the house (I just googled average house cost in 1972), but having an annual salary greater than the cost of a house is mind boggling to me."

Maybe I am not interpreting the post right, still finishing my coffee. But shows an inflation adjusted $81,000 yet uses a non inflation adjusted $27,000 for a house. When in reality with the inflation adjusted salary and inflation adjusted house in PA the spread percentage wise is the almost the same. AS the average PA house is $253,000 and today's homes are larger with more luxuries. Nationally $345,000 is an average but you have to go local.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Sheesh. No wonder so many engineers transition to tech.

Engineer's with a few exceptions don't make anywhere near what most people think. I know as I'm a PE. It's a nice middle class living but you can get that with other jobs that don't take anywhere near the time and effort to get the degree and license and then maintain a required level of professionalism.

 

[supton]

Maybe I am not interpreting the post right, still finishing my coffee. But shows an inflation adjusted $81,000 yet uses a non inflation adjusted $27,000 for a house.

Good question. Google shows

There is a yahoo link and that says:

So $27.6k was median, not average, and that it inflates to $200k today.

This isn't up to date as it's for 2022:

I recall an article back in 2016 saying that the median price of a home in 1950 was 2x the median income, and that it was over 5x in 2015. It's only worse now. Granted, our homes are larger (more materials), and the materials have to be "better"--no more 2x4 framing on exterior walls, exterior walls have to be 2x6 or whatever, so as to get that much more insulation in the walls, higher R rating glass, all sorts of details in even a minimum construction to drive up price to build.

 

[JTK]

Engineer's with a few exceptions don't make anywhere near what most people think. I know as I'm a PE. It's a nice middle class living but you can get that with other jobs that don't take anywhere near the time and effort to get the degree and license and then maintain a required level of professionalism.

Agreed. Similar situation where I work. Engineers make $60-80K, where hourly, shift working production, tech, maintenance people easily make $100K with light overtime.

 

[Rmay635703]

Unless you have a super expensive house or high interest rate, std deduction will likely be higher.

Something like non taxed per diem can bite you in the butt later. I did 12 years in the USAF, lot of non taxed like BAH, BAS.
Looking at social security, all those years I earned "on paper" not much.

Her job can only pay her rent as per diem 2 years, doubtful it would matter much in this case and considering the immense savings she might avoid lots of interest and other costs early.

 

[GMFan]

I wrote my post before finishing my coffee this morning and I forgot to adjust the average house cost. It should be:

Adjusted for inflation:
Starting salary in ‘69: $81,145
5 yr college in ‘69: $42,278
Average cost of house in ‘72: $206,228

Apologies for the confusion!

Still a 2.5x starting salary vs house cost is not bad. I started as an engineer out of school in 2009 at $52k. Now they start around $70k. Average house cost in 2023 is $446k, which is about 6.3x starting salary vs house. Houses are bigger today, but still the ratio difference is quite high.

Electrical Engineer here with PE and 15 years of experience. It’s not an easy path and for the money one could argue it isn’t worth it. I know people in banking with a finance degree a few years out of school who make more than I do. Engineering isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Lots of stress, liability, etc. but I’ve never been unemployed. We are in demand (for now). Engineers are HORRIBLE business people which is part of the problem. So as an industry we don’t push to get paid what we should be worth. Hourly rates are laughable compared to other fields. It’s an industry issue and is very frustrating. I hope as an industry it changes and brings in more interest. Tech is a brain drain on traditional engineering and can’t blame folks chasing the money. There are days I wish I went into “tech” and made 3x the money…

 

[ecotourist]

Covered by who? The Government doesn't have a job, every penny it pays for medical procedures ultimately comes from the population.

Yes, covered by general taxation. We also have public administration, so there is no profit motive. Workers in the system, (administrators, cleaners, nurses, physios, surgeons, anaesthetists, and probably others) are of course paid. No one works for free.

 

[DwightFrye]

I get the point that you are trying to make but you can't really include the cost of housing, utilities, meals, car and and health insurance, fuel and other expenses in the cost of tuition. Yes they were costs incurred by you, your wife and daughter but they would have been costs incurred whether or not she was in school.

That being said, the wages expected in her profession seem pretty low. So I see the frustration in spending the money to get the degree. I don't know what the prevailing wages are in big cities in Sou. Cal for the same type of work but rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is typically $2500 a month in any place that you'd feel safe to live plus things like utilities and auto insurance are high as well. One can now make $20 an hour flipping burgers or filling a coffee cup at Starbucks.

But at least you, your wife and daughter stepped up to the plate and paid for everything and don't expect to have tuition debt forgiven. I wish her luck.

 

[supton]

ngineering isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Lots of stress, liability, etc. but I’ve never been unemployed. We are in demand (for now).

Yep, I seem to get reminded daily about how what I do can easily be outsourced. Maybe not daily but it does feel like a sword hanging over my head. Engineers in other countries cost a lot less.

24 years designing PCB's for semiconductor test. At some point I need to find a different path--I like playing with electronics but clearly it won't pay the bills in the future.

 

[andrew_j]

RT is a little more than a tech/trade school job. My daughter has been through some ridiculous math tasks during the RT program where she had to calculate all sorts of things about how the patient is functioning and how a ventilator should be set based on those calculations. There's also several theories as to how a patient should be treated, she had to learn about those and more.

There's also more to treating patients as an RT. You do realize that many tasks they perform are life-saving and a ventilator is a life-support system, right?

Have you ever had a family member on a ventilator in a hospital for an extended period of time? I ask because I have. I know what the RTs do. I suspect most people reading this thread couldn't do the job for any amount of money.

It can be achieved in 2 year associates degree like a friend of ours did at tech college. It’s not an easy job and sorry I implied otherwise. The salary aligns better to that then a 4 year degree at typically university/ college with superior experience typically.

My niece has learning issues and ended up failing out of dental hygienist school at 4 year school accruing about $60k in debt. The 2 year program offered in state by the technical school costs $20k all in. You get same job and salary.

 

[ecotourist]

Who financed all that?

How to finance many years of post-secondary education:

My parents were not wealthy. But they paid for a large part of my first year of university and a tiny part of the second year. I worked hard at my studies and won a large scholarship that paid for most of the 3rd and 4th years. And I always had good summer jobs. I finished that first degree with high honours (great distinction), a good car and money in the bank.

I worked for a year as an engineer and my new wife and I saved half of my income. Because I had done well in the first degree, I won a major scholarship for post graduate studies in Engineering. That paid for my Master's program (and simultaneous pre-med classes).

During Medical School my wife and I lived frugally. My wife had low paying but interesting jobs. When I finished Medical School we still had money in the bank.

I spent a decade as a family physician/general practitioner and then went on to specialty training.

Post graduate (specialty) training in medicine pays a living income for hard work and horrible hours (90+ hour work weeks). You primarily work in the hospital taking care of patients and learn along the way. Those 5 years of hard work and study paid for themselves.

So that’s how you finance years and years of post-secondary education. Was it all planned out in advance? Absolutely not. Was it worth it? Absolutely. I enjoyed most of it and had a fine career. The only disadvantage was “no money” until I was 30 years old.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

I get the point that you are trying to make but you can't really include the cost of housing, utilities, meals, car and and health insurance, fuel and other expenses in the cost of tuition. Yes they were costs incurred by you, your wife and daughter but they would have been costs incurred whether or not she was in school.

Uh, yes, I can. And I do. I love how this is always raised as an "yeah, but you can't count that..."

Yes, I can. And I do.

If she wasn't going to college to pursue a worthwhile education, she wouldn't be on my dime for a second residence and surely wouldn't be on my dime for other outstanding living expenses.

For all those who are Monday Morning quarterbacking, you and your kids don't know how their college path will, would or did turn out until it's over. There's a LOT of BS promises made by college administrators, marketing geniuses and outright lying people working at colleges/universities in order for you and your kid to sign up. The first year, the meal card charge was $1600. The best I could get out of that, no matter who's math I used, was $1400 in benefit. I called the school twice to have someone explain it to me - I requested the people in charge of administering SODEXO's meal plan/charge, I asked the Professor of the Math department and the President of the University to call me back on a conference call and explain it. Didn't hear back from anyone in a week, so I called again. I talked to someone other than the student answering the phone. I forget who it was, but it was someone in Administration with a soundy title.

Never heard a word back. I warned the person I talked to that I would figure out how to show up at the next Freshman Orientation where all the parents of the incoming Freshmen would be in one large room with all the fancy Administration Staff smiling and cheering everyone on and I would stand up and ask the question, with large, printed posters showing the math in front of everyone ....

Never heard a word.

Next year, the meal plan was reduced to $1400 and you could achieve $1400 in benefit. Amazin', huh?


A lot of you in this thread have replied as if I had the means and know-how to secure a job and financial means to somehow pay for this college education, but I didn't have the common sense to research and flesh out the cheaper apartment, do a cost/safety benefit analysis to her living a longer distance away to save $97 / mo in a cheaper, older apartment complex and other intricacies about living... I've kinda been managing my household expenses for 30 years and while I've made plenty of mistakes, I've learned from them.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

It can be achieved in 2 year associates degree like a friend of ours did at tech college. It’s not an easy job and sorry I implied otherwise. The salary aligns better to that then a 4 year degree at typically university/ college with superior experience typically.

You are correct, but like Dave Hess said earlier, my daughter with a Bachelor's Degree will have more opportunities in a few years that the AAS degreed RTs can't get.

Even so, even if she had gone down the path of a community college, the starting pay isn't enough to allow someone to live on their own unless it's in an area that has low to little opportunity for advancement OR you're driving another 50-90 minutes per day after a 13-14 hour shift.

 

[alarmguy]

Good question. Google shows
View attachment 213402

There is a yahoo link and that says:
View attachment 213404

So $27.6k was median, not average, and that it inflates to $200k today.

This isn't up to date as it's for 2022:
View attachment 213405

I recall an article back in 2016 saying that the median price of a home in 1950 was 2x the median income, and that it was over 5x in 2015. It's only worse now. Granted, our homes are larger (more materials), and the materials have to be "better"--no more 2x4 framing on exterior walls, exterior walls have to be 2x6 or whatever, so as to get that much more insulation in the walls, higher R rating glass, all sorts of details in even a minimum construction to drive up price to build.

You may be interested, I dot know any homes in the south where walls are 2 x 6 and I have been through a lot (hundreds) of framed homes before drywall in the last two years from NC to FL all exteriors are 2 x 4 except for homes with 16 foot ceilings.
I do remember a long time ago a family member in CT had a new home going back decades built with 2 x 6s

One thing for sure, today's homes are much better insulated, cost effective and filled with options.

Home prices are tricky on a national level. I prefer the median as you posted but there is a huge disparity based on location.
It seems even the media uses the word incorrectly... though I THINK this might be more the median.

Average house price by state

The average house price in the United States as of the fourth quarter of 2023 is $417,700. See how states compare here.

www.fool.com

 

[alarmguy]

I wrote my post before finishing my coffee this morning ....

I do that often *LOL* then when I realize all my mistakes and mis-spelled words the time to edit runs out .

 

[andrew_j]

I’ve spent 35 years in healthcare (various roles) and it seems like everyone starts off making less money than they were expecting. It takes years to build up your training and skill set to make the money you’re worth.

I recently had a Physical Therapist tell me they are underpaid for having a doctorate degree.
I also had a Pharmacist tell me they are underpaid for having PharmD degree.
Both people have $150K of student loans.
They are praying Uncle Joe takes care of it……..

My daughter was thinking about nursing and I convinced her to do something more specialized. Clinical nursing is very difficult and high stress dealing with so many problems and issues out of your control.

She became a perfusionist (open heart surgery) and really enjoys her career, she is also a medic in the Air Force Reserve. Perfusion is a lesser known career field and pays very well once you get the hands on experience and knowledge.

Perfusionist - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cardiovascular Perfusionist - Explore Health Care Careers - Mayo Clinic College of Medicine & Science

A healthcare career as a cardiovascular perfusionist, including what they do, where they work, and the programs at Mayo Clinic College of Medicine and Science.

college.mayo.edu

.

Dr of physical therapy is a big joke. My wife did hers in 4 years Bachelors including summer and winter sessions and managed to graduate for $35k. It adds no respect or cred and pay is the same.

She was even department lead of 100 people in large TX hospital 2 year out of gate who paid for her MBA.

She regressed back to working 20hrs as lead PT therapist (8) for FT benefits however pay at her experience level is still not great if a FT job with 30 yrs experience. Cannot fathom 7 years of paid school.

 

[thastinger]

Yes, covered by general taxation. We also have public administration, so there is no profit motive. Workers in the system, (administrators, cleaners, nurses, physios, surgeons, anaesthetists, and probably others) are of course paid. No one works for free.

In fractional banking systems, there defiantly IS a motive for every new dollar created from thin air.

 

[99Saturn]

There were about 6-1/2 years. 4 years before entering the RT program, which is 5 straight semesters, no breaks. Each one of the RT program semesters is about $6k just in tuition. This has been 2022-2024. The cost of housing during this period was 200%+ the cost of housing I paid for her during the prior 4 years. Other expenses increased, as we know.

Years 3-4 were about $15k each, as you suspected. Tuition back then was about $3-4k, which was picked up through the Athletic Department for her working for them. There was STILL $1000+ in FEES they didn't pay for....


No, I wouldn't be financing a college "experience" for a kid to get some Poli-science (science..... ) degree/indoctrination nor would I be financing some BS in gender studies, how round is a wheel or some other crap dreamed up by a college staff to sucker in students and their parents checkbooks...

If you have an economics degree, I am guessing you could use that in a productive manner to work in finance or some other field to assist entities with good decisions.

$20K a year even better!

I use very little of my undergrad, arguably the political science the most to be honest, though I am sure there will be disbelief in that statement from many. I also use my Master's very little (MBA) but they all look good on paper and have served me well to get me to where I am now. I can say definitively I would not be where I am without them, purely from a hiring policy perspective.

Congrats again to your daughter!

 

[Dave Hess]

Hillbilly Deluxe,

With experience, training and time at any organization comes leadership positions and better pay.

I know an RT, now at the corporate level responsible for coordinating disaster preparedness training drills with various police / fire depts and county EMS / federal agencies, active shooter drills (at hospitals), mass casualty, …etc…

After Pulse Nightclub shooting and Stoneman Douglas High School shooting here in Florida… now all healthcare organizations take these drills very seriously.

Your daughter has a good future and definitely needs to take advantage of tuition reimbursement to get masters in healthcare administration. Lots of opportunities in the future if she is ‘hungry’ for career growth and willing to move around for promotions.

 

[nickaluch]

I didn't want to hijack the Living in a Car thread, but this is kinda-sorta related-

My 25 year old daughter will graduate with a Bachelor's Degree in Respiratory Therapy in early May. This venture was 100% financed by my wife and I and my daughter. She did work pretty much all the time she's been in college in some form or fashion and you could say she had two jobs at one point and that was during a very critical time. She mostly worked at restaurant-type places but also worked for the college athletic department as a trainer (taping up ankles, etc) while she was a Kinesiology major. She worked more or less to have some spending money and help augment her groceries, gas, etc. My wife and I paid the heavy costs.

First two years, tuition, books, campus housing/meal card - $10,000 per semester, except for the last semester of the first two years tuition assistance from the Athletic Trainer job knocked about $2500 off of that $10k.

Next year about $5k in tuition for both semesters, housing was about $500/mo, $125 in utilities, $200 in other expenditures, so about $15k/year.

She changed majors, had to take some other courses/classes, etc., applied for nursing and respiratory therapy programs, accepted to both. Chose RT. This was 5 straight semesters. Tuition was $6k/semester. By now, it's 2022 and housing is off the charts, so is food, car insurance, etc. The last 5 semesters were about $50,000 in total expenses plus whatever she spent with her earnings from working a part-time job. This includes housing, food, meds, car insurance, maintenance, fuel, tuition, supplies for college, utilities, etc., so probably somewhere along $60k total.

All told, about $130k total for her degree. She has accepted a position at a local Children's Hospital. She will work one month on day shift and then work night shift from then on. Base rate of pay for day shift is $22.66/hour and there is a $5/hour differential for night shift, where she will make $27.66.

This hospital is in a downtown urban area, a larger city and I don't want her driving 30+ minutes each way before/after a 13-14 hour shift. We've found her a 1-bedroom, ~700 sf apartment that is adjacent to the hospital....she simply has to walk out of the apartment building, down about 1/2 block to a hospital employee parking deck, where she can then traverse through that deck up to a walkway and through another deck and another walkway to the hospital.

Rent is $1500/mo, not including water, sewer, garbage, plus internet, power. Parking is included. She won't have to pay $40/mo to park in the hospital deck.

She will not make enough to live on with a Bachelor's Degree and 5 semesters of high-intensity training, education and hospital clinicals already under her, performing life-saving techniques. After $130,000 in college education expenses at a "State school", one of which most or all of you have never heard of. We will have to continue to help her out with monthly bills until she gets a year or two under her with work experience and possibly a few more certificates of training in life-saving techniques.

Nurses are about the same. I think the same hospitals in the area are starting RNs at a couple dollars more.

Something is really out of whack with college education, cost of college and living expenses today. So before you make all those lovely college campus visits, before you sign your kid up for a college education, before you commit to financing that college/party experience, know that the cost probably isn't amortizable over their careers.

My niece graduated nursing school first year with overtime time working nights made $128 k. Her starting salary was $99k. St Francis hospital Nassau county NY. She's on her second year there.