Talk Some Sense into an Oil Thickie?

Devils Advocate: Couldn’t the dealer simply ask for the oil change records to verify oil changes were done timely and with properly spec’d oil/filter? I’m no Rocket Surgeon but would seem way more straight forward and definitive.

* This is predicated on the notion that oil damaged the engine and the dealer suspected such. Which I don’t think either would happen. Again, devils advocate.
Yup, if you have oil change receipts, they'll likely not bother sending off the oil unless they have reason to suspect that you are lying/the records are forged.

This is one "plus" of having the vehicle serviced at the dealer, even if you provide the fluids, as they'll have those records readily available.
 
Guess you didn’t watch the video. And I know for a fact because some of my family members work in dealerships. People bring in their cars because there’s an issue with their engine and since it’s under warranty they do send in an oil sample to verify that it was the correct specification. And when it’s not. Sorry you violated the warranty you’re not covered. So that’s not fear mongering. But by all means try and be smarter than the people who designed both the engine and the oil.
Exactly what kind of engine issues?

Only senario that might cause enough engine damage to cause someone to take it in to a dealership for repair is if an oil was way too thick for cold weather start-ups and the engine was starved of oil because the oil wouldn't pump properly.
 
Personally thinking most wear is when the engine is cold at startup. Not only is the oil thicker at that time but the engine metal, like pistons are not at the higher running temperature clearance. All oil is too thick at start.
Just physics…
But running at operating temperature each engine will have an optimum viscosity to how it is run. Like towing for example.
 
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Personally thinking most wear is when the engine is cold. Not only is the oil thicker at that time but the engine metal, like pistons are not at the higher running temperature clearance. All oil is too thick at start.
Just physics…
So thicker oil causes wear?
 
How would they verify the oil has the correct specification? The oil isn't being sent to SWRI to see if it passes a specific sequence.

Dealerships send in the oil to get analyzed to determine if:
1. The proper viscosity was used (IE, you aren't using 20W-50)
2. The oil was run at a sane interval; that the oil was in fact changed and the vehicle properly maintained
3. The oil has a normal looking additive package. So you aren't using ND30 for example or City Star.

They aren't trying to determine if you used Castrol or Mobil in the same grade because only the Castrol product had the WS-xxxxx OE approval. They want to confirm that the oil was changed in a timely manner and with a product appropriate for the application.

Only exception I can think of is the UV dye used by one of the marques in their factory service fill, think it's Jaguar?
VW uses dye as well. Easy to detect if the wrong oil was used.
 
So thicker oil causes wear?
What is thicker, what is thinner? Oil being a fluid is not a gas. It does not compress. But oil pump bypass does happen and oil filter bypass does happen. With oil drained to the lowest oil passage point what is your delta P across your oil filter at startup. What if the concern is lubrication to the cylinders at start up and you have oil jets.
 
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VW uses dye as well. Easy to detect if the wrong oil was used.
Yes and VW explained why. It is to detect the use of the oil in engines that cannot tolerate the lower HT/HS of 508 00 approved oil. VW made it clear that this oil is not for use in any engine that does not list the approval (not back-specified).

People confuse this with the notion that the dye and element tracer are there to ensure its use where it is approved. There is no evidence for that whatsoever.
 
What is thicker, what is thinner? Oil being a fluid is not a gas. It does not compress. But oil pump bypass does happen and oil filter bypass does happen. With oil drained to the lowest oil passage point what is your delta P across your oil filter. What if the concern is lubrication to the cylinders at start up and you have oil jets.
Piston cooling jets aren't there to lube the bores, as the name indicates. Their primary function is cooling the underside of the piston. Everything has a film of oil on it when the engine fires. The ADBV on the filter is meant to keep a head of oil in the engine so that you don't have to fill the system before pressurization occurs.
 
Piston cooling jets aren't there to lube the bores, as the name indicates. Their primary function is cooling the underside of the piston. Everything has a film of oil on it when the engine fires. The ADBV on the filter is meant to keep a head of oil in the engine so that you don't have to fill the system before pressurization occurs.
Do you think there is a dual purpose? I am guessing not…
 
Yes and VW explained why. It is to detect the use of the oil in engines that cannot tolerate the lower HT/HS of 508 00 approved oil. VW made it clear that this oil is not for use in any engine that does not list the approval (not back-specified).

People confuse this with the notion that the dye and element tracer are there to ensure its use where it is approved. There is no evidence for that whatsoever.
In your opinion. Dye can be used for both scenarios.
 
Do you think there is a dual purpose? I am guessing not…
That would predicate on whether you think there's a longevity difference between engines equipped with them vs those without. For reference, the 2V Modular, probably the longest lasting engine in existence, does not have piston cooling jets.

Also, per a previous discussion on the matter, with respect to a Toyota engine that had plugged jets, they are thermostatically controlled and do not operate all of the time (at least with Toyota).
 
That would predicate on whether you think there's a longevity difference between engines equipped with them vs those without. For reference, the 2V Modular, probably the longest lasting engine in existence, does not have piston cooling jets.
On a piston there are vents to the oil control ring from the underside of the piston. Does not matter… Splash or oil jet. Engineered that way.
 
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On a piston there are vents to the oil control ring from the underside of the piston.
Yes, that's to let oil that the scraper rings (oil control rings) collect off the walls return to the sump. Those holes plugging up due to being too small in diameter is what led to Toyota's notorious oil burner as well as the Saturn oil burners.
 
Yes, that's to let oil that the scraper rings (oil control rings) collect off the walls return to the sump. Those holes plugging up due to being too small in diameter is what led to Toyota's notorious oil burner as well as the Saturn oil burners.
My understanding was Toyota’s issue was low tension piston rings. But I am not sure…
 
In your opinion. Dye can be used for both scenarios.
I was going by the press releases and technical information that was posted on here when the approval was issued.

What would VW be protecting by ensuring the use of 508 00 oil where it is listed? I can understand the potential damage by using it in other engines, but what is the overriding benefit to VW where it is approved? I mean to the extent that they would go through adding a dye and tracer. Why would they protect that?

508 00 oil does not have any benefit other than slightly increased fuel economy. There would have to be a significant technical benefit for VW to ensure the use of the oil or conversely a significant technical detriment for not using it in those engines which specify the approval.
 
My understanding was Toyota’s issue was low tension piston rings.
Negative. Plugged oil return holes, which led to the oil control rings getting packed with carbonaceous crud and then sticking in their grooves. This stopped their function: Oil control, which in turn led to copious oil burning. Saturn had the same problem.


I am rebuilding my corolla 1ZZFE engine because it was burning oil. Got my new pistons yesterday and wanted to compare them with the old ones to see if there really was a difference between the two .

Three of the old pistons had stuck oil control rings. They had carbon between the two oil control rings and a build up of carbon behind the rings of almost 1/16 of an inch. Also all four of the oil drillings that go from behind the oil control rings to the under side of the piston crown were totally blocked. The carbon went completley around the piston oil grove but was a quite a bit thinner over the blocked holes. The forth piston did not have stuck oil rings and even though it had quite a bit of carbon beneath the rings, the oil drillings were open ( There was no carbon within an inch of the holes) .

I cleaned up one old piston and compared it with the new one from Toyota.
At first glance they looked exactly the same, but I could see differences in the casting marks and numbers, same overall design though. Same weight( a couple of grams lighter), same diameter. There is a small difference in the cutouts for the valves though. The biggest difference is the oil drillings / holes behind the oil control rings. Instead of two small holes on each side over the skirt ( about 1/16 of an inch dia.) now there are four holes on each side almost double in size ( about an 1/8 of an inch dia. ). The holes are also drilled lower in the ring grove( actually about half of the hole is in the grove, and about half is below the grove in the piston body). You can see the bottom half of the holes even when the oil rings are in place.

The old oil control rings had very little wear compared to the new rings, again same overall design also.

Apparently when the oil holes become blocked , oil is no longer directed from between the rings to the underside of the piston and then to the crankcase, but is instead burned/carbonized onto the piston causing the carbon build up ,stuck rings and burning oil.

This is what Toyota says is the fix to the oil burning problem.

Look here to see a Toyota tech document, scroll down to attachment : http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=75536

You will have to register to read the attachment, but it is worth it.
 
The question was asked about Honda engine, why are we talking about VW engines? There is no dye test for Honda and 0w-20 is just a recommendation, no where in the manual it says it will void warranty
 
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