Some thoughts about non-Euro Oil in my Euro car.

[Hohn]

It’s scary that some people (not you) read his blog and actually think that he knows what he’s talking about. He’s a hack and a detriment to people who really want good information about motor oil

Darn you all for making me google him up. I need some eyebleach after wasting 4 minutes scrolling that self-aggrandizing drivel.

 

[edyvw]

My intention was never to seek validation, and I'm quite surprised that you're jumping to this false accusation over one post (which I feel comes off as merely soliciting a thought-provoking discussion). I was looking for a technical discussion, which has not occurred. I don't have a drop of ILSAC oil in my stash, and didn't really plan to - but I wanted people to critique the thought process I had about the convergence of engine and lubricant technology that seems to have occurred in the 2010s.

Instead, I now have a bunch of people that are treating me as if I've personally shot and killed the formulator of Mobil 1 ESP 0w-30. Oh joy.

As already pointed out, your criteria are way too narrow. There is far more involved in the approval process than just grad or HTHS.
And the reason why I said it, is that is has been discussed to death in Euro forum.

 

[kschachn]

It was intended as an honest question about a thought I had last night. I expected some humorous responses, but was hoping for an overall genuine discussion of some sort. I'm quite disappointed, as I feel the moderator set a poor tone for the rest of the thread.

And you got it.

 

[D4700]

As already pointed out, your criteria are way too narrow. There is far more involved in the approval process than just grad or HTHS.
And the reason why I said it, is that is has been discussed to death in Euro forum.

Of course, and I wasn't insinuating that SAE grade or HTHS viscosity are my only criteria. I focused on this as it's the most commonly cited reason why people prefer Euro lubes - high HTHS. I was also thinking that the dexos/ILSAC/API and ACEA test requirements seem to be looking to accomplish the same goal of fuel economy, long drain intervals, turbocharger protection, controlled timing chain wear, cleanliness, GDI specific requirements, and more these days, as engine design and aspects of lubrication formulation philosophy have seemingly converged to a certain degree in recent years.

 

[edyvw]

Of course, and I wasn't insinuating that SAE grade or HTHS viscosity are my only criteria. I focused on this as it's the most commonly cited reason why people prefer Euro lubes - high HTHS. I was also thinking that the dexos/ILSAC/API and ACEA test requirements seem to be looking to accomplish the same goal of fuel economy, long drain intervals, turbocharger protection, controlled timing chain wear, cleanliness, GDI specific requirements, and more these days, as engine design and aspects of lubrication formulation philosophy have seemingly converged to a certain degree in recent years.

However, the key is in testing. APi does testing on two engines, Ford and Toyota. Approvals are done on specific engines for that brand. So it is comparing apples and oranges. BMW does a timing chain test on N20 engine. Why would API oil, whose timing chain test is done on Toyota engine, be applicable in the BMW engine? APi is one size fits all. What is turbo protection? All oils protect turbo. They did that 50 years ago, and they do that now. The question is how they do that. GDI specific requirements? Whose requirements? What is GDI specific requirement? LSPI? Euro engines in general don't have LSPI issues. LSPI issue became prevalent precisely bcs. API requirements and drop in ZDDP levels since API SM (and bad engineering too).

 

[Shel_B]

Instead, I now have a bunch of people that are treating me as if I've personally shot and killed the formulator of Mobil 1 ESP 0w-30. Oh joy.

I saw the WANTED poster hanging in the local Walmart.

There were at least a few very good technical points raised, such as Astro14's power density comment and kschachn's mention of oxidation and HT/HS.

If you want to start a technical discussion, there are better ways of doing it than the way you did. One might be to be direct, "I'd like to understand why the preference for Euro-speced oil in ..."

 

[Triple_Se7en]

If manufacturers thought ESP was a better carbon-cutting solution, Mobil-Exxon would choose it instead of EP as their flagship #1 oil. There are good reasons for SP and Dexos / Gen 3 that can't be found inside an ESP bottle of oil. Sometimes protecting the engine / timing chain is better than doing much longer OCIs.

Buy the EP - shorten the OCIs and leave the numerous different ESP oils on store shelves, unless specifically needed and called for by the manufacturer at the time of engine birth / beginning with the type of oil that's inside the vehicle when it's built on the new factory assembly line.

 

[Glenda W.]

I like looking at these to see where the different approvals/certs target performance.

 

[Patman]

If manufacturers thought ESP was a better carbon-cutting solution, Mobil-Exxon would choose it instead of EP as their flagship #1 oil. There are good reasons for SP and Dexos / Gen 3 that can't be found inside an ESP bottle of oil. Sometimes protecting the engine / timing chain is better than doing much longer OCIs.

Where does it actually say that they have chosen this oil as their flagship #1 oil? I must’ve missed that section on their website.

Truth is that they offer many different oils for many different applications and it’s up to the consumer to choose which one they want. EP sells a lot because it’s readily available and it’s only a small amount more than the basic vanilla M1.

And manufacturers don’t really choose what brand of oil they want people to use, other than a few instances like the Corvette where the Mobil 1 logo used to be under the hood, or a few others which had the Castrol logo under there. But they never specified any particular version of that oil that they wanted people to use. That’s up to the individual to decide.

 

[OVERKILL]

If manufacturers thought ESP was a better carbon-cutting solution, Mobil-Exxon would choose it instead of EP as their flagship #1 oil. There are good reasons for SP and Dexos / Gen 3 that can't be found inside an ESP bottle of oil. Sometimes protecting the engine / timing chain is better than doing much longer OCIs.

Everything under the Mobil 1 moniker is a flagship product, each with their own focus. EP is their extended drain API oil, ESP is their DPF/GPF compliant Euro oil, FS is their non-GPF/DPF compliant Euro oil, AFE is their "fuel economy" focused API oil...etc.

Can you cite your sources to support your claim that SP and Dexos are superior to the OEM approvals found on ESP? Keep in mind that timing chain protection has been part of the standard crop of Euro approvals since before Dexos existed. MB 229.1/229.3/229.31/229.5/229.51 limit elongation to 0.25% (1% of a single link, looks like they are ~1.5cm so ~0.15mm), dexos1 Gen 2 (diesel) limits elongation to 0.8mm under GMPTE-T DUR019.

Buy the EP - shorten the OCIs and leave the numerous different ESP oils on store shelves, unless specifically needed and called for by the manufacturer at the time of engine birth / beginning with the type of oil that's inside the vehicle when it's built on the new factory assembly line.

This is a pretty confident recommendation, be great to know the data behind it, unless of course this is just your opinion? But if that's the case, then it should be expressed as such.

 

[Shel_B]

This is a pretty confident recommendation, be great to know the data behind it, unless of course this is just your opinion? But if that's the case, then it should be expressed as such.

IMO (ha!), most posts here are opinions.

 

[TiGeo]

IMO (ha!), most posts here are opinions.

All day everyday.

 

[Patman]

IMO (ha!), most posts here are opinions.

True, but unfortunately some people’s opinions are so completely far fetched that it’s taking away from this site

 

[D4700]

Everything under the Mobil 1 moniker is a flagship product, each with their own focus. EP is their extended drain API oil, ESP is their DPF/GPF compliant Euro oil, FS is their non-GPF/DPF compliant Euro oil, AFE is their "fuel economy" focused API oil...etc.

Can you cite your sources to support your claim that SP and Dexos are superior to the OEM approvals found on ESP? Keep in mind that timing chain protection has been part of the standard crop of Euro approvals since before Dexos existed. MB 229.1/229.3/229.31/229.5/229.51 limit elongation to 0.25% (1% of a single link, looks like they are ~1.5cm so ~0.15mm), dexos1 Gen 2 (diesel) limits elongation to 0.8mm under GMPTE-T DUR019.

This is a pretty confident recommendation, be great to know the data behind it, unless of course this is just your opinion? But if that's the case, then it should be expressed as such.

This is the kind of knowledge I was hoping to gain from this thread, thank you. Took a gander at the Afton spec handbook as suggested by some of the others and, while it's difficult to compare specifications (different tests, different methods, different engines), little things like this reaffirm my use of a Euro spec oil.

I like looking at these to see where the different approvals/certs target performance.

View attachment 262286



View attachment 262288

View attachment 262289

View attachment 262290

^ Don't forget to include this part.

 

[kschachn]

View attachment 262334
^ Don't forget to include this part.

Even then they are only areas of emphasis between iterations of the particular approval or specification. This is shown by the use of “relative” in the description.

 

[Glenda W.]

This is the kind of knowledge I was hoping to gain from this thread, thank you. Took a gander at the Afton spec handbook as suggested by some of the others and, while it's difficult to compare specifications (different tests, different methods, different engines), little things like this reaffirm my use of a Euro spec oil.


View attachment 262334
^ Don't forget to include this part.

Yes, not good for comparison but great to see what performance targets are emphasized by each approval.

 

[willbur]

QS Ultimate Protection 5W-30 sounds like a good choice to me, as long as you aren’t concerned with getting grief from the dealership if there is an engine-related warranty repair. The oil has modest TBN, like many oils do these days, so if you intend to push the OCI far enough to warrant it, get a UOA done at a good lab that measures oxidation and pay for TBN and TAN. The oil has particularly low volatility and very good resistance to forming deposits from high temperatures. QS significantly improved the latter compared to the API SN Plus Ultimate Durability lineup.

A moderator said you posted a dumb idea. Every person I respect in real life would not tell someone else that a dumb question was asked.

yeah and that moderator could lose the attitude, too