Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter

[SilverFusion2010]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
All oils are too thick when cold. The 0w will thin to the correct viscosity faster than the 10w


um no...

BTW, too thick to do what ?


Perhaps I should have used different phrasing. All oils are thicker than their spec grade when cold.

The second part, 0w starts thinner so it has a head start over the 10w in thinning to its spec grade.

Better?

 

[merconvvv]

"Pennzoil Platinum®
with PurePlus™ Technology can be mixed with other synthetic and mineral oils and is recommended
for use in all vehicle applications under all driving conditions."

Overkill and kschachn better inform pennzoil.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
"Pennzoil Platinum®
with PurePlus™ Technology can be mixed with other synthetic and mineral oils and is recommended
for use in all vehicle applications under all driving conditions."

Overkill and kschachn better inform pennzoil.

What are you talking about? Of course they can be mixed. It is a requirement that they can be. However, that does not mean that it is optimal, and it also means that you can lose the benefits of either the oil that is in the car or the one you were mixing in. Nothing in that statement invalidates anything that anyone has said in this thread.

It does not say that mixing is recommended. Is that what you're trying to say? Read it again and go see what ExxonMobil says about it. They point out that by mixing you run the risk of losing the benefits of Mobil 1.

 

[merconvvv]

The word Optimal is being used cleverly. Stick with the W rating criteria.
Mix two 5w SN rated oils you still have something that is 5w unless both oils were on the boundary of 5w and 10w. There would be havoc if u mixed 2 5w oils and ended up 15w which is possible in your world where you are assuming nonlinear effects.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv


It is silly to think that 4 quarts of qsud 10w30 and 1 or 2 quarts of 20w50 will end up 20w30. Lol.


Why?

You have no idea what happens to the cold temp performance and the miscibility standard doesn't have any verbiage about it either.

You are welcome to pull the trigger on whatever blend you feel like dreaming up, but you have absolutely nothing to hang the W-side of the number on. The "W" performance rating hinges on VII treatment and additives like PPD's, particularly when we aren't dealing with a PAO base, and subsequently, when we modify/dilute the base oil blend we change the treat rate of those additives to maintain/obtain a given W rating. Is it likely that mixing a 10w-30 with a 20w-50 ends up at 20w-30? No. Is it possible? certainly. What you do end up with is ultimately unknown without CCS and MRV testing and considering we are griping over $2/quart oils at this point, obviously that isn't in the budget.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The word Optimal is being used cleverly. Stick with the W rating criteria.
Mix two 5w SN rated oils you still have something that is 5w unless both oils were on the boundary of 5w and 10w. There would be havoc if u mixed 2 5w oils and ended up 15w which is possible in your world where you are assuming nonlinear effects.


There has been plenty of discussion about the miscibility standard on here, in fact Shannow has posted about it extensively. If you mix a largely PAO 5w-30 that may have little to no PPD's with a largely conventional 5w-30 that has a ton of PPD's, you cut the ratio of base oil to PPD's by whatever your mix is. Is it likely to turn into a 15w-30? No. But it could drop out of the 5w-30 range.

Ultimately, oils are an optimized blend of base oils and additives to achieve a range of performance targets, which generally also correspond with some OEM performance protocols. They are an intentional suite of compromises to check all the boxes they need to, many of which are inversely related to others. You toss home blending into the mix there and the potential for screwing up at least some of those metrics is pretty high. If it was as simple as slapping bases and additives together, companies like Infineum and Lubrizol wouldn't exist, companies would just toss base oils and additives together and produce awesome sauce.

 

[merconvvv]

We are talking about quality oils that can be had for 2 dollars a quart. This is what some bitogers do. Blending is done by very few.

And i think i will believe pennzoil over you. Lol.

You have no proof.

Pennzoil in one week does more testing than you can imagine

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
You cant come up with one ?

I would blend qsud 10w30 noack 5.0 with pyb 20w50 noack around 5.0 too. I have just started thinking about this but its doable i think. Clearance qsud is almost free with rebates.

I have also looked for hdeo 10w30 in the past only to be disappointed by the noacks or lack of info thereof


The problem is we can't confirm the W rating of that, and it certainly wouldn't be a 10W, might even end up with a 20w-30, LOL!

NOACK data availability is a big issue when trying to compare to commercial products as for whatever reason, most don't seem to publish it

It is silly to think that 4 quarts of qsud 10w30 and 1 or 2 quarts of 20w50 will end up 20w30. Lol.


Yes that is silly !

And now you are cleverly saying mixing 5w pao with 5w conventional can make it fall out the 5w grade. Well so what. It can be just straddling the fence of 5w. Ccs and mrv are not discrete variables. The ccs of the blend could just barely miss the 5w test and now it is the dreaded 10w lol. No. Qsud 10w30 is a very light 10w30 for example.

 

[dblshock]

I have 0/20 and 5/20 Citgo full synthetic stashed along with 10/30 of the same so this winter I'll combine them to a 5/25 in my Toyota..bought this for a buck a qt and since soured on any W20 but feel compelled not to waste.

 

[fdcg27]

Please tell me that you don't actually believe that a couple of unicorn volatility numbers are typical of either oil.
Everyone here already knows that they aren't.
Anyway, mix to your heart's content.
You won't be getting the grade you think you will but your engines won't die of it.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
"Pennzoil Platinum®
with PurePlus™ Technology can be mixed with other synthetic and mineral oils and is recommended
for use in all vehicle applications under all driving conditions."

Overkill and kschachn better inform pennzoil.

Here's what they say when asked directly....

Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
Originally Posted By: Question 15
I like to use thinner grades of full synthetic to thin out heavier grades of conventional or synthetic motor oils. I’m currently running a blended mix of M1, 15W-50 and M1 0W-20, 3 quarts of each until the cold of winter arrives. Once the cold of winter arrives, I’ll be using 1 Gallon of Shell Rotella T6 and 2 quarts of Formula Shell full synthetic 5W-30 until June. I’ll keep the same M1 extended performance filter on for 2 runs along with a filter magnet attached to the filter. Would running Pennzoil Ultra or Pennzoil Platinum in a 5W-30 be more beneficial year round rather than blended mixes?
You’re clearly looking to take a great deal of care of your engine and have thought a lot about your choices of oil. Whilst blending together oils may give you the expected physical properties (e.g. viscosity) the performance of mixtures of performance additive packages is much harder to predict, I’m afraid chemistry is much less predictable than physics!


Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
Originally Posted By: Question 15
16. I’m interested in making a custom blend for my vehicles. Preferentially starting with Rotella T6 5W-40, as it’s in the family, but wanting something a bit closer to 5W-30. Rotella as it’s in the family, and a strong oil, but if needed, Platinum Euro 5W-40 could be considered as a starting point. I would like to blend it down to a 5W-30 using Platinum 5W-20, so that I will end up with a 5W-30 with a little more anti-wear additive than the typical 5W-30. Are there any problems doing this, and will the results be as I expect them to be?
The physical results may be very much as you expect i.e. viscosity is likely to be predictable following well known physical laws however the chemical effects are highly unpredictable. Wear performance is not dictated solely by the amount of wear protecting additives in an oil, the efficacy (effectiveness) of the additives must also be considered. Efficacy can be negatively impacted by changing the balance of a formulation package. The approach you suggest could conceivably result in poorer performance, I would recommend choosing a single tier of product, and Pennzoil Platinum has been designed to offer complete protection including unsurpassed wear performance.


Originally Posted By: Casrol Oil Formulator when asked if two 0Ws makes a 0W
It's an interesting one. Certainly no guarantee of 0W being achieved but without knowing the oils it's difficult. Often PPDs are universal across an additive suppliers range. But if you had two oils with different DI, PPD and VII you might cause problems with used oil. Even if Ccs is ok for 0W

MRV can also run into problems when certain VMs are combined with other PPDs.

In my own car I will only top up with oils using the same additive system. (Diff grade can be ok if I'm desperate ) but I want to ensure no issues. (Eg silicates and sulphonate detergents mixing are not ideal either)

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
The word Optimal is being used cleverly. Stick with the W rating criteria.

The word optimal is being used correctly. By your mixing you do not know what the cold-cranking rating will be and you do not know what (if any) specifications the oil will still meet. That, by definition makes it sub-optimal to using an already formulated motor oil that has both the performance specifications and the cold-cranking rating that is optimal for your requirements.

The whole notion that you are somehow "engineering" a cold cranking performance specification by your mixing is just not supported by any facts whatsoever.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
And now you are cleverly saying mixing 5w pao with 5w conventional can make it fall out the 5w grade. Well so what. It can be just straddling the fence of 5w. Ccs and mrv are not discrete variables. The ccs of the blend could just barely miss the 5w test and now it is the dreaded 10w lol. No. Qsud 10w30 is a very light 10w30 for example.

Well that was clearly part of the big "gotcha" you tried laying on us earlier:

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
"Pennzoil Platinum®
with PurePlus™ Technology can be mixed with other synthetic and mineral oils and is recommended
for use in all vehicle applications under all driving conditions."

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
And now you are cleverly saying mixing 5w pao with 5w conventional can make it fall out the 5w grade. Well so what. It can be just straddling the fence of 5w. Ccs and mrv are not discrete variables. The ccs of the blend could just barely miss the 5w test and now it is the dreaded 10w lol. No. Qsud 10w30 is a very light 10w30 for example.

Well that was clearly part of the big "gotcha" you tried laying on us earlier:

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
"Pennzoil Platinum®
with PurePlus™ Technology can be mixed with other synthetic and mineral oils and is recommended
for use in all vehicle applications under all driving conditions."


Thats what pennzoil says. What dont u follow about what they are saying. Note it does does not say driving conditions in temps greater than 50 degrees.

And when u blend u r optimizing according to your set of criteria. Some blenders are not concerned with optimization of ccs at minus 50. That is the whole idea of blending your own oil. I personally try to optimize noack for my oil burner and optiimize with respect to dollars too

. Ccs and mrv are also optimized for particular scenarios to be encountered.
I dont go by 10w rating etc as those rating are for the mass public at large.

And it is simply incorrect to imply that 50 50 blend of pp 5w20 and 10w30 will not have better ccs than 100 percent pp 10w30.

It is simply incorrect to imply that 4 quarts of qsud 10w30 and 1 or 2 quarts of pyb 20w50 might result in 20w30.

Some of you might have vested interests in oil products. Who knows whos who on this site.

 

[kschachn]

This discussion is deviating from reality and likewise from the title of a "Serious discussion".

Vested interest? What sort of silly imagined accusation is that? Kind of like when you said you thought I was "busy convincing the oil industry and academia to drop noack testing"?

Have at it man, this is your thread now. You earned it.

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Thats what pennzoil says. What dont u follow about what they are saying. Note it does does not say driving conditions in temps greater than 50 degrees.

And when u blend u r optimizing according to your set of criteria. Some blenders are not concerned with optimization of ccs at minus 50. That is the whole idea of blending your own oil. I personally try to optimize noack for my oil burner and optiimize with respect to dollars too

. Ccs and mrv are also optimized for particular scenarios to be encountered.
I dont go by 10w rating etc as those rating are for the mass public at large.

And it is simply incorrect to imply that 50 50 blend of pp 5w20 and 10w30 will not have better ccs than 100 percent pp 10w30.

It is simply incorrect to imply that 4 quarts of qsud 10w30 and 1 or 2 quarts of pyb 20w50 might result in 20w30.

Some of you might have vested interests in oil products. Who knows whos who on this site.

 

[merconvvv]

Haha i was being sarcastic because you keep harping that noack is not important.

Maybe you just dont get it !

I will blend according to my criteria and not pay mucho $$$$ for oil. Plain and simple. Probably reduce profits for others.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Overkill and kschachn better inform pennzoil.

Can be mixed and should be mixed are not the same. Now, if I have M1 EP with a 15,000 mile warranty in my G37 and say Pennzoil Platinum as the other half, will Pennzoil warranty my engine against a lube related failure during the OEM OCi, and then M1 EP will pick up the last 11250 miles of the OCI?

 

[SilverFusion2010]

Heh, I'll give you 3 pistons and a valve cover...

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Yes the whole idea is to blend according to meet your personal standard with your money and costs. I wud not do it in a newish car with a warranty.
OP already blends 5w and 10w.i think.


Garak please read the entire post.

 

[T-Stick]

Thank you -- that was very helpful.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: T-Stick


I understand the w for winter is a theoretical weight of measure.


No, it isn't. The "W" designation simply indicates an oil's ability to pump and not impact cranking speed at specific temperatures.

Think of it as two bars, one far more strict than the other, that indicate a ceiling for a designation.

As an oil cools, it thickens. They all do. When you get a ways below 0C, testing via CCS and MRV, viscosity roughly doubles for every 5C drop in temperature. As soon as an oil crests the ceiling for CCS viscosity for a designation, that sets its W rating. Likewise, if it exceeds the MRV limit, it would receive the next grade up. From what I've observed, it seems to be CCS that generally is exceeded first.

Look at SAE J300:

Say we had an oil that was 6,000cP at -25C tested via CCS. At -30C, that oil would be ~12,000cP, meaning it would be above the limit for the 5w-xx designation (6,600cp) so it is then assigned the 10w-xx rating unless for some wacky reason it's >60,000cP @ -30C on the MRV test.




Originally Posted By: T-Stick
What I was posing is something like this: If you have a 5w30 and a 10w30 with the same or very similar pour point of around -35F in 2 different vehicles, and the ambient temp is -0F; when you cold start both vehicles at -0F and then drive them till they reach their normal operating temps, would not the 10w oil provide better protection then 5w oil because both oils are pumping just fine but the 10w has a thicker viscosity?

Its more a question than a statement.


Pour point is largely irrelevant, CCS and MRV are the numbers that define cold temperature performance. What Pour Point can be used for is a rough indication of the quality of base stocks the oil is comprised of. An oil with an extremely low pour point like AMSOIL's 0w-40, which has a pour point of -60, indicates a significant portion of PAO in the base, which has naturally exceptional cold temperature performance. PAO is not required to meet a specific W designation, but it doesn't gel because it doesn't have any wax, so even if viscosity-wise, it fails MRV (it won't pump), it would still pour.

For your example, try to look at it like two curves that go from heavy (cold) to thin (hot). Assuming both oils have the same hot viscosity being xW-30's, the slope on the 5w-30 is going to be less sharp than the 10w-30. A 0w-30 would be less sharp still. And then we could toss a wrench into the mix and put in a Euro 0w-30 that would be thicker than all of them for the entire curve until we approach the CCS and MRV limits for the 5w-30 and 10w-30.

That help?