Serious discussion about 10W syn for winter

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Along with Shannow's suggestion to replace the number after the dash with HTHS, I would also suggest we get rid of the number before the "W" and replace it (and maybe the W too) with a letter. Kind of like the tire ratings. That might help to eliminate the confusion over what that portion of the grade designation represents.


Yes, it creates an absolute ton of confusion.

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Along with Shannow's suggestion to replace the number after the dash with HTHS, I would also suggest we get rid of the number before the "W" and replace it (and maybe the W too) with a letter. Kind of like the tire ratings. That might help to eliminate the confusion over what that portion of the grade designation represents.


I think i made a similar post where i said the rating system was inadequate and left a lot to be desired.

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
There is not a whole lot of vii in pp 10w30.
The blends ccs should be less or equal to that of pp 10w30.
By how much exactly i cant say.

I doubt there's a lot in it either, but it would likely be different than what is used in the Mobil product, as it is a very different oil. How they interact? We have no idea.

Exactly. I still am lost on when this is ever a good idea.


You are lost cuz you have worked in the industry and take all suggestions and criticism to heart.

"We have no idea how it interacts" is a poor mans explaination.

Ya i wud love to be able to buy redline oils but i can get somewhat close by blending sn rated oils at a fraction of cost. Sometimes if you are lucky your blends can be close to dollar a quart. Just use qsud oils as some of the building blocks.

 

[merconvvv]

Experts: egg yellows are bad for you then egg yellows are not so bad afterall. Lol.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Along with Shannow's suggestion to replace the number after the dash with HTHS, I would also suggest we get rid of the number before the "W" and replace it (and maybe the W too) with a letter. Kind of like the tire ratings. That might help to eliminate the confusion over what that portion of the grade designation represents.

I think i made a similar post where i said the rating system was inadequate and left a lot to be desired.

There's a difference between confusing and inadequate. I don't believe it is inadequate, it conveys the proper cold-weather performance data like it is intended to do. It's confusing though because people equate the meaning of the number before the "W" to the meaning of the number after the dash, which is not appropriate.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
You are lost cuz you have worked in the industry and take all suggestions and criticism to heart.

"We have no idea how it interacts" is a poor mans explanation.

Ya i wud love to be able to buy redline oils but i can get somewhat close by blending sn rated oils at a fraction of cost. Sometimes if you are lucky your blends can be close to dollar a quart. Just use qsud oils as some of the building blocks.

No, I did not work in the industry and I never said I did. I have a minor in Chemistry and I took exactly one Fuels & Lubricants class (with a lab). That is the extent of my interest.

But I still don't get the need for blending. Be honest you do not know what you are getting through any blend, it is only an imagined result. You have no way of modeling, predicting nor testing the cold weather performance of your blend. Plus you end up with an oil that has no certifications. Why would you ever want that?

You still haven't clearly explained why it is necessary or desirable either. What exactly is wrong with picking a grade that is appropriate for your engine and for the expected climate?

 

[merconvvv]

I must have you confused with another bitoger that tested/rated oils.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
I must have you confused with another bitoger that tested/rated oils.

Nah, not really. As part of that class I ran a bunch of ASTM tests for lab reports, and then later when I worked for the Chemistry department we ran Karl Fischer titrations and atomic absorption (wear metal) tests for the fluid power department. But I never did it as a real job.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv


"We have no idea how it interacts" is a poor mans explaination.


It exactly illustrates the issue. You quite literally have no idea what the characteristics for CCS and MRV are for the finished product because it is not tested. This is compounded by the fact you are using oils from two different blenders with two different bases. It is one thing blending various grades of Redline; in fact I believe we have documentation of Redline advocating it due to their additive packages and base oils being common across their product line. It is quite another blending a Mobil majority PAO product with a GTL-based SOPUS one.

 

[merconvvv]

As far as blending goes here is one example.

One might not be comfortable running 5w20 in their ford v8. (Lots of bitogers). But not quite want to jump to 10w30. So blending pp 5w20 with 10w30 gives you middle of the road.

What if you want low noack (less than 6) hths around 3.5 and want to keep it under 2 dollars a quart and throw a few more specs in there for fun. Say it should "mimic" 15w for your climate ? This is an example off the top off my head.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
As far as blending goes here is one example.

One might not be comfortable running 5w20 in their ford v8. (Lots of bitogers). But not quite want to jump to 10w30. So blending pp 5w20 with 10w30 gives you middle of the road.


It gives you what, a lighter 10w-30? We aren't talking a big visc or HTHS range here either....

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
What if you want low noack (less than 6) hths around 3.5 and want to keep it under 2 dollars a quart and throw a few more specs in there for fun. Say it should "mimic" 15w for your climate ? This is an example off the top off my head.


Assuming I had no OEM gasoline approvals required, an HDEO 10w-30 could likely be procured in that price range with that HTHS and not require tossing the W rating to the wind as an unknown.

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
As far as blending goes here is one example.

One might not be comfortable running 5w20 in their ford v8. (Lots of bitogers). But not quite want to jump to 10w30. So blending pp 5w20 with 10w30 gives you middle of the road.


It gives you what, a lighter 10w-30? We aren't talking a big visc or HTHS range here either....

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
What if you want low noack (less than 6) hths around 3.5 and want to keep it under 2 dollars a quart and throw a few more specs in there for fun. Say it should "mimic" 15w for your climate ? This is an example off the top off my head.


Assuming I had no OEM gasoline approvals required, an HDEO 10w-30 could likely be procured in that price range with that HTHS and not require tossing the W rating to the wind as an unknown.


Show me an hdeo 10w30 for about 2 bucks a quart with published noack less than 6. I am removing the gasoline constraint just for you.

 

[OVERKILL]

The problem with that challenge is that lack of published NOACK data from most of the majors.

- Co-Op D-MO GOLD 10W-30 has an HTHS of 3.54, a VI of 135 and can be had for $3/litre Canadian, which puts us close to our target. Unfortunately I don't see any NOACK data, which is unfortunately quite common for many oils.

- Another one would be Petro-Canada Duron HP 10w-30, which has an HTHS of 3.5, VI of 145 and can be had for under $3/L Canadian (and even cheaper if you buy bulk) but again, no NOACK data.

- DELO 400 10w-30 is similar, and again, no NOACK data.

So, now your turn, what's the 15w-30 verified as having an HTHS of ~3.5cP, tested NOACK of L that you are thinking of?

 

[merconvvv]

You cant come up with one ?

I would blend qsud 10w30 noack 5.0 with pyb 20w50 noack around 5.0 too. I have just started thinking about this but its doable i think. Clearance qsud is almost free with rebates.

I have also looked for hdeo 10w30 in the past only to be disappointed by the noacks or lack of info thereof

 

[Virtus_Probi]

The PQIA only shows analyses for 4 10W30 HDEOs (Rotella T and T5, Delo 400XLE, and Motorcraft Super Duty) and 1 5W40 (Rotella T6), and none of them have very impressive NOACK results...all in the 12-13% range. Delo is actually the best at 11.6%. These are all CJ4 except for the Motorcraft, which meets Ford's own WSS-whatever spec.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: merconvvv
You cant come up with one ?

I would blend qsud 10w30 noack 5.0 with pyb 20w50 noack around 5.0 too. I have just started thinking about this but its doable i think. Clearance qsud is almost free with rebates.

I have also looked for hdeo 10w30 in the past only to be disappointed by the noacks or lack of info thereof


The problem is we can't confirm the W rating of that, and it certainly wouldn't be a 10W, might even end up with a 20w-30, LOL!

NOACK data availability is a big issue when trying to compare to commercial products as for whatever reason, most don't seem to publish it

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
The PQIA only shows analyses for 4 10W30 HDEOs (Rotella T and T5, Delo 400XLE, and Motorcraft Super Duty) and 1 5W40 (Rotella T6), and none of them have very impressive NOACK results...all in the 12-13% range. Delo is actually the best at 11.6%. These are all CJ4 except for the Motorcraft, which meets Ford's own WSS-whatever spec.


Yes, the data available is highly limited unfortunately.

 

[merconvvv]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: merconvvv
You cant come up with one ?

I would blend qsud 10w30 noack 5.0 with pyb 20w50 noack around 5.0 too. I have just started thinking about this but its doable i think. Clearance qsud is almost free with rebates.

I have also looked for hdeo 10w30 in the past only to be disappointed by the noacks or lack of info thereof


The problem is we can't confirm the W rating of that, and it certainly wouldn't be a 10W, might even end up with a 20w-30, LOL!

NOACK data availability is a big issue when trying to compare to commercial products as for whatever reason, most don't seem to publish it

It is silly to think that 4 quarts of qsud 10w30 and 1 or 2 quarts of 20w50 will end up 20w30. Lol.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Pour point is largely irrelevant, CCS and MRV are the numbers that define cold temperature performance.

This exactly. "W" ratings based upon pour point failed miserably and were replaced for a reason.

merconvvv: Mixing Red Line is a little different, since they encourage mixing within their lines. Mixing across brands (or even across product lines) to tailor cold weather viscosity is problematic.

 

[02SE]

I had Mobil 1 10w30 in a vehicle which I started after sitting overnight in -40° ambient temperatures, on several consecutive days. It started and ran fine. It seems there were no adverse effects, as it continues to run fine years later.