Reddish Varnish Inside Valve Covers and FrontCover

[LeakySeals]

Yeah, thats varnish. I had something similar. Somebody used cheap conventional oil and didn't change it on time. It degraded and burned up. It will be gone after the 3rd OCI using M1 5w30 and a decent filter. Also check the exhaust manifold bolts. They can rust and fall off. The header can separate from the head and get noisy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
No reason at all to do short runs of a quality synthetic. You can't 'use up' it's cleaning ability so just use something decent for normal OCIs. If you're worried about it, change the filter halfway through and open it up to see what's in there.

Do not start using magic elixirs or any odd oil regimens like "Use the cheapest oil and filter you can find for 500 miles and do that three times, then use a semi-syn and a decent filter for 1000 miles and do that twice, then nothing but a mix two quarts of 20w50 Royal Purple, two quarts of 0w20 Amsoil, a quart of T6 and a quart of MMO for a year, then you should be good to go. That's what my friend's brother-in-law who just opened a racing shop does on customer cars because he read it on BITOG.".


Actually, you can use it up so to speak. One of the roles of the additive package in the oil is to keep contaminants in suspension so they don't deposit on surfaces. There is only so much that can be contained in this manner before that capacity is used up. In a clean engine, this isn't an issue, the only products that will be suspended in the oil are those that are introduced to it during regular operation. However on an engine heavily laden with deposits and the goal being to remove those deposits the oil will reach its saturation limit and subsequently stop cleaning and will also be unable to keep future contamination introduced by combustion and blow-by in suspension.

 

[Shannow]

Yes it's varnish, and per OVERKILL's creation mechanism.

Varnish is polar, and likes to stick to metal surfaces. Oil is typically non polar, and has a limited ability to hold/carry varnish, holds more with higher temperature. In an engine, varnish is most likely formed in the ring belts, and in the blowby regions in the crank-case, then floats around waiting for some cooler surface to plate out on.

The thing is, it will build up in the oil, and nothing happens until it's carrying capacity is reached, then it bombs out, and every gramme made after that plates out.

Typically harmless (althour in my turbine life, the cool spot is governors and valve actuators, and if they stick, kaboom...)

Had very similar on my L67 Caprice. Photobucket playing up, so can't post pictures yet.

Tried AutoRx, some other crazy stuff, and went back to first principals with 1,000 mile oil changes on a 15W40 that was advertised as having great cleaning...all did nothing.

If you want to test what I'm saying, take one of your valve covers, and use hot water and clothes washing powder...they are polar, very polar, and strip the red stuff right off...not really applicable to the rest 'though.

Just keep up regular OCIs with a good oil, and don't worry too much about it.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Actually, you can use it up so to speak. One of the roles of the additive package in the oil is to keep contaminants in suspension so they don't deposit on surfaces. There is only so much that can be contained in this manner before that capacity is used up. In a clean engine, this isn't an issue, the only products that will be suspended in the oil are those that are introduced to it during regular operation. However on an engine heavily laden with deposits and the goal being to remove those deposits the oil will reach its saturation limit and subsequently stop cleaning and will also be unable to keep future contamination introduced by combustion and blow-by in suspension.

Well, sure, but I would imagine an engine would need to be filthy for an oil to become anywhere near saturated with deposits enough to warrant it needing to be changed early. This engine is nowhere near that.

 

[BaReinhard]

OVERKILL, thank you for the fact/proof backed information and suggestions. It makes a lot of sense in how you describe there only being a usable amount of "space" for contaminants to be in suspension within the oil, especially with the wording Shannow used (polar and non-polar, which brought me back to my brief chemistry background).

One thing I am still curious about is what the difference in color represents? It is just as simple as the longer it doesn't get changed the darker it will get? I.E. the difference between my engine color vs say this engine:

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Well, sure, but I would imagine an engine would need to be filthy for an oil to become anywhere near saturated with deposits enough to warrant it needing to be changed early. This engine is nowhere near that.


It's varnish, which is ONE contaminant produced by engine oil degradation...let it go, and you get sludge.

The solubility limits of varnish in oil are quite low, and temperature dependent...here's what 40C can do to it's solubility...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Actually, you can use it up so to speak. One of the roles of the additive package in the oil is to keep contaminants in suspension so they don't deposit on surfaces. There is only so much that can be contained in this manner before that capacity is used up. In a clean engine, this isn't an issue, the only products that will be suspended in the oil are those that are introduced to it during regular operation. However on an engine heavily laden with deposits and the goal being to remove those deposits the oil will reach its saturation limit and subsequently stop cleaning and will also be unable to keep future contamination introduced by combustion and blow-by in suspension.

Well, sure, but I would imagine an engine would need to be filthy for an oil to become anywhere near saturated with deposits enough to warrant it needing to be changed early. This engine is nowhere near that.


The varnish being that dark red colour indicates it is a pretty thick layer. If an oil is successful at working to remove that layer, it is going to become saturated relatively quickly. Note the difference between crusty deposits (which won't be suspended in this way, they will end up in the oil filter), sludge, and varnish, as per the diagram I posted earlier.

I think you and I have different opinions on what constitutes "filthy"

Regarding varnish, barring sludge, I would say this engine meets the definition of filthy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Well, sure, but I would imagine an engine would need to be filthy for an oil to become anywhere near saturated with deposits enough to warrant it needing to be changed early. This engine is nowhere near that.


It's varnish, which is ONE contaminant produced by engine oil degradation...let it go, and you get sludge.

The solubility limits of varnish in oil are quite low, and temperature dependent...here's what 40C can do to it's solubility...



Good share

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BaReinhard
OVERKILL, thank you for the fact/proof backed information and suggestions. It makes a lot of sense in how you describe there only being a usable amount of "space" for contaminants to be in suspension within the oil, especially with the wording Shannow used (polar and non-polar, which brought me back to my brief chemistry background).

One thing I am still curious about is what the difference in color represents? It is just as simple as the longer it doesn't get changed the darker it will get? I.E. the difference between my engine color vs say this engine:




Colour mostly represents the thickness of the build-up. The thinner the film, the yellower it will be, the thicker the film, the darker. Yours is extremely dark red, which indicates it is quite thick. If you can, poke it with your finger nail to get an idea as to the depth of it, it might surprise you.

 

[bdcardinal]

When I first saw that it looked like a Glyptal coating you would do to a race engine.

 

[BaReinhard]

This is good to know, thank you.

In addition, in your opinion, bare minimum how long would some build-up/varnish like this take to accumulate?

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Devil's advocate here. I'd run a short OCI with Kreen and conventional oil, follow their directions. Then switch over to a synthetic oil and change it once every 5K miles or 12 months which ever comes first.


+1

I'd run a full can of Kreen (MO Kano Labs) in each of the next two oil changes. I'd run Chevron Supreme 5W-30 as it's about the stoutest dino oil I know of and it does not fight Kreen. Then switch up to Pennz Ultra and run that 5,000 miles for three changes.

By then anything sticky will not be (rings, lifters, etc.) and the red will be down to a golden orange. From there on out, you are good to go

If you can fit it, run oversized Napa Gold filter... Not the finest media, but you do not need fine media. You need a good small bit catcher and they excel at that

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: paulri
Since it has been averaging 8K OCIs on conventional for most of its life so far, I'm concerned that if I just go straight to a 10K OCI on synthetic ........

I'm not expecting sludge-related engine seizure from this engine of yours, never mind the varnish within ....... in your good hands.
Just my judgemental speculation.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

You never mentioned what oil brands you used, to gather all that varnish. Years ago I quit using Castrol because that's how my varnish bred new life.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BaReinhard
This is good to know, thank you.

In addition, in your opinion, bare minimum how long would some build-up/varnish like this take to accumulate?


Long change intervals with cheap oil that was not up to the task of those intervals. Several tens of thousands of miles is my guess.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I think you and I have different opinions on what constitutes "filthy"

Regarding varnish, barring sludge, I would say this engine meets the definition of filthy.

Indeed we do but I respect what you're saying.

 

[BaReinhard]

I can't remember exactly which it was but it was a Pennzoil with a gray bottle, bought in 5 qt jugs. I want to say it was Pennzoil Platinum but I can't say for sure until I go check my trunk. That being said I've only used it for less than 1000 miles. The oil life monitor logic just pulled my change oil light to come on and I changed the oil.

This point forward I'll be checking % life left every couple of weeks, but ultimately use miles driven as my guide. When I bought the car they had just changed the oil (or so they said). Come to think of it, I probably should have stopped taking their word for things after I realized they never fixed the A/C, but when they did it died shortly there after.

Anyway, the oil life monitor supposedly calculates the life of the oil based on several factors. Exactly what they are I am unaware of, but I've had friends who drive harder than I do and had to replace the oil far before I did

I have heard great things about Pennzoil Platinum so I will be using that this point forward, with either a microGreen or a Fram XG filter.

 

[BaReinhard]

I've worked on a few old cars in my time and traditionally when I think of a "filthy" engine I think of black deposits. With my current engine, when I saw it I thought it was dirty but not filthy. After spending some time on this board reading, I am inclined to believe, if its not "filthy" its definitely closer to filthy than just dirty.

 

[BaReinhard]

Just so I can clear up the theory portion of your post am I reading this correctly?

As the engine partially combusts fuel, liquid nitrated and oxygenated monomers will form in the oil. With the monomers present in the oil and exposed to heat they will turn to varnish then eventually sludge if left untreated. In addition, if the monomers are exposed to carbon/water/solids they will turn to sludge without needing to turn to varnish.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: BaReinhard
OVERKILL, thank you for the fact/proof backed information and suggestions. It makes a lot of sense in how you describe there only being a usable amount of "space" for contaminants to be in suspension within the oil, especially with the wording Shannow used (polar and non-polar, which brought me back to my brief chemistry background).

One thing I am still curious about is what the difference in color represents? It is just as simple as the longer it doesn't get changed the darker it will get? I.E. the difference between my engine color vs say this engine:




Let me guesss..... Toyota 2AZ-FE?