Pnzoil dino 10W30, 4,506 miles, Infiniti G35

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
I don't have a link - nor did I ever claim I did. I stated perfectly plainly that the information is contained in supplemental warranty information booklets that I have in my possesion. So far all you've offered is word of mouth - which by itself makes my points no less convincing. You seem peculiarly interested in making claims, but offering nothing whatsoever to support them. I imagine our little interchange has sent a few BITOGERs scrambling for their own paperwork, and I'm sure they'll be able to confirm what I've said. (I'm equally sure you've already done the same but you won't admit it.) You can have the last word - it seems to be the only thing you're good at.

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Ok, so you can provide no link to support your assertion that binding arbitration as related to warranty claims is required to sell cars in the US? So who's making claims they can't substantiate again?

I just read through my Ford manual one more time. I can read just fine. No mention of binding arbitration in that manual. Period, end of story.

The only option for a Ford consumer nationwide with unresolved warranty issures is the "Ford Consumer Appeals Board." It's supposedly a "cost-free, independent, dispute-settlement program available to to owners of Ford Motor Company Vehicles."

I think we went through a bunch of these issues in this thread -

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=001196;p=1

and I don't recall Ford being forced into anything...

 

[Ray H]

Nonsense - nothing was settled in the Covington's case because they did just about everything wrong they could've - surpassed a severe service OCI by 4,000 miles (7,000+ miles pushing air at 70+ mph with a high frontal aspect RV pulling an enclosed trailor loaded with four dirt bikes, support equipment, and fluids is not "normal service" by any stretch!), neglected to have a sample of the engine oil drawn when it was drained, and refused to even consider the remedy of binding arbitration. Add to that list retaining a lawyer who did nothing but collect his retainer and tell them what they wanted to hear while their RV sat exposed at the dealer's lot as they continued to make payments, and huff and puff on this forum. In the end, allegedly*, Roger Pensky (the owner of the dealership that refused their warranty claim) stepped in at Cathy Covington's begging and offered a free engine if the Covingtons would pay the installation cost ($2,000.00 if memory serves me right). I was one of, if not the FIRST, to advise her to take the offer, though she balked at it before she was overcome with a terminal attack of uncommonly common sense.

*I will always believe it was Ford that was really behind (and FUNDED) the offer - not because the company was rattled by the prospect of going to court (and certainly NOT from 4,000 BITOG forumners' butterfly sneezes over the matter), but simply to get the matter out of the way. By pulling Pensky's name into the equation as "the good guy" helping out the hapless "damsel in distress", Ford avoided the appearance of buying off the RV's owners. Had the case actually gone to trial, Ford could well have spent the $10,000.00 engine cost and more on mounting a defense. (Very probably a successful one!) Judges in civil cases have been known to split jury awards, so the Covingtons definitely did NOT have a slam-dunk awaiting them in court - even if they did squeak out a victory.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
...The only option for a Ford consumer nationwide with unresolved warranty issures is the "Ford Consumer Appeals Board." It's supposedly a "cost-free, independent, dispute-settlement program available to to owners of Ford Motor Company Vehicles."...

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Sure sounds like BBB AUTO LINE binding arbitration to me . . . Think about it - a "Ford" dispute settlement program that's "independent"? Yeah, right . . . I betcha anyone who contacts Ford for warranty dispute settlement receives a packet form BBB AUTO LINE.

But, jsharp, you go right on believing the fairy tale that any auto manufacturer has its own "independent" dispute settlement apparatus in place.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Nonsense - nothing was settled in the Covington's case because they did just about everything wrong they could've - surpassed a severe service OCI by 4,000 miles (7,000+ miles pushing air at 70+ mph with a high frontal aspect RV pulling an enclosed trailor loaded with four dirt bikes, support equipment, and fluids is not "normal service" by any stretch!), neglected to have a sample of the engine oil drawn when it was drained, and refused to even consider the remedy of binding arbitration. Add to that list retaining a lawyer who did nothing but collect his retainer and tell them what they wanted to hear while their RV sat exposed at the dealer's lot as they continued to make payments, and huff and puff on this forum. In the end, allegedly*, Roger Pensky (the owner of the dealership that refused their warranty claim) stepped in at Cathy Covington's begging and offered a free engine if the Covingtons would pay the installation cost ($2,000.00 if memory serves me right). I was one of, if not the FIRST, to advise her to take the offer, though she balked at it before she was overcome with a terminal attack of uncommonly common sense.

*I will always believe it was Ford that was really behind (and FUNDED) the offer - not because the company was rattled by the prospect of going to court (and certainly NOT from 4,000 BITOG forumners' butterfly sneezes over the matter), but simply to get the matter out of the way. By pulling Pensky's name into the equation as "the good guy" helping out the hapless "damsel in distress", Ford avoided the appearance of buying off the RV's owners. Had the case actually gone to trial, Ford could well have spent the $10,000.00 engine cost and more on mounting a defense. (Very probably a successful one!) Judges in civil cases have been known to split jury awards, so the Covingtons definitely did NOT have a slam-dunk awaiting them in court - even if they did squeak out a victory.

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The point I was trying to make is that a particular manufacturer isn't required to submit to arbitration unless they have agreed to it as part of your warranty. With your Hyundai they *have* ( BBB words )" precommitted (agreed in advance) with the CBBB to arbitrate certain disputes that may arise with consumers." as part of the warranty you were given with the vehicle and that makes it binding. Since I'm not a proud Hyundai owner that effects me not at all.

You might want to read closely on the BBB site about what you think you have. Every manufacturer that is listed there as part of the program has varied responsiblities and obligations to the program depending on the state you live in and the particular manufacturer. Toyota isn't listed at all.

So to circle back to my original post that likely brought about this discussion, I'll continue to believe what I believe and you can do the same. But if you think that some receipts from Walmart for a few quarts of oil and a couple of filters will protect you more than possibly multilple UOA's from independent labs, I wish you the best of luck.

I'm not going to worry about it myself...

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
...The only option for a Ford consumer nationwide with unresolved warranty issures is the "Ford Consumer Appeals Board." It's supposedly a "cost-free, independent, dispute-settlement program available to to owners of Ford Motor Company Vehicles."...

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Sure sounds like BBB AUTO LINE binding arbitration to me . . . Think about it - a "Ford" dispute settlement program that's "independent"? Yeah, right . . . I betcha anyone who contacts Ford for warranty dispute settlement receives a packet form BBB AUTO LINE.

But, jsharp, you go right on believing the fairy tale that any auto manufacturer has its own "independent" dispute settlement apparatus in place.

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Of course they just call it the "Ford Consumer Appeals Board" instead of the BBB. It's really the same thing.

Good luck on that arbitration. From an organization that's supported and financed by the manufacturers. Well, a few of them anyway. Subject to the terms of state and federal law and the agreement between the organization and manufacturer to arbitrate "certain" disputes...

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pitbull:

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pitbull:
So why do you really use synthetic oil in your vehicle???

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Because the wear numbers are so similar that they can be ignored, the cost is a wash, and I end up doing 1/2 or 1/3 as many changes. I don't change the filter in the middle of a 10K run and I don't know why it would be required.

I've seen what my engines look like inside after 150,000 - 200,000+ miles with synthetic. They're still clean. Would they have been with dino? Maybe.

Would the Nissan 3.0L I had that always ran high water and oil temps have lasted as long with dino? I'm guessing not but I have no way to know for sure.

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I understand what your saying but what about warranty concerns? My Toyota requires 5K mile OCI to meet warranty requirements. Please don't use the answer that the manufacture has to prove that by me doing 10K mile changes with synthetic caused the failure. I don't want to have to hire a lawyer to try and prove that my 10K mile OCI with synthetic was just as good as the dealers required 5K mile OCI. This is a problem for most owners that drive vehicles still under warranty.

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If you do your own oil changes with *any* kind of oil you're going to be fighting the exact same fight with the dealer if he tries to cheat you. Receipts from Walmart for "some oil" aren't going to *prove* you actually changed it nor is any personal log book you might keep. Short of having the dealer or some other business that the dealer recognizes do the work and document it, you're in the same place no matter.

Myself, I've never worried about the warranty concerns. But, I've never owned a vehicle that had any parts fail that might be disallowed a warranty repair because of the OCI either.

And given what I've seen of dino oils in extreme use, I'll take my chances that the synthetic will offer better protection and make the chance of lubricated part failure that much less likely...

 

[Pitbull]

Your right about the reciepts. I have the dealers do the changes while under warranty and then normally do them myself when the warranty is up. Did that with my LC and switched to Mobil 1 at the 60K mile mark. Did the OCI every 5-6K at that time (I just can't seem to go any longer then that) sold the LC at around 140K miles and it was running great. I did pop the valve cover at 90K miles to check the valve adjustment and it looked new. That was with 60K of good dino and 3-4K mile OCI and 30K miles of Mobil 1 and 5-6K mile OCI. I am sure that the LC will keep running into the 300K+ miles if the new owner keeps changing the oil between 3-5K mile OCI

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pitbull:
Your right about the reciepts. I have the dealers do the changes while under warranty and then normally do them myself when the warranty is up. Did that with my LC and switched to Mobil 1 at the 60K mile mark. Did the OCI every 5-6K at that time (I just can't seem to go any longer then that) sold the LC at around 140K miles and it was running great. I did pop the valve cover at 90K miles to check the valve adjustment and it looked new. That was with 60K of good dino and 3-4K mile OCI and 30K miles of Mobil 1 and 5-6K mile OCI. I am sure that the LC will keep running into the 300K+ miles if the new owner keeps changing the oil between 3-5K mile OCI

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I understand people having a dealer do the oil changes while under warranty. I wouldn't do it, but it makes sense that there's no way they could deny a warranty claim because of if you did. I can see that piece of mind making it worth it to some people and I sure wouldn't tell them they're wrong...

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
...Because ... I end up doing 1/2 or 1/3 as many changes.

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Which also results in 2-3 times the concentration of sub-20u particulates to build up between OCIs. There's more to the particulate story than wear metals, alone. Even if this crud doesn't agglutinate into sludge, it's still abrasive.

 

[Ray H]

Yes, AUTO LINE is financed by the auto companies. (Would you rather the expenses be paid out of pocket by the consumers seeking redress?) The courts are financed by taxpayers - would that lead you to conclude that the court system can be bought and sold by the litigant with the most money? (Please, PLEASE make that grand pronouncement to any judge's face who's handling ANY legal action you may become involved in. Be sure to tell him that I said it was OK for you to do that . . .

) The arbitrators are independent contractors (usually retired judges or engineers) who rotate through for limited "terms".

Ford owners have legal recourse - you are dead wrong that their only recourse is through an internal Ford dispute settlement apparatus. Ford owners, (or for that matter, any manufacturer's owners) can go directly through AUTO LINE or file suit directly in civil court. (Hint - that's what they're there for.)

One thing you've failed to grasp (well, out of many) is that if a dealership refuses to honor a warranty claim on the basis that an owner does his own maintenance, the matter is NEVER between consumer and dealership. Dealerships do not issue warranties. Manufacturers issue warranties. (If you bought a third-party "extended warranty", it's not a warranty at all - it's an extended service contract. ONLY manufacturers can issue warranties in the U.S.) If the manufacturer tells the dealership to fix the problem as a warranty item, it will get fixed if that dealership wants to continue its franchise. The owner ALWAYS has the right to request a manufacturer's zone area rep. to review the case and inspect the problem. There are very few actual oil-related failures unless the oil was driven to exhaustion (sludge and varnish), depletion, or a clearly inappropriate motor oil was used (SA or SB as examples). It won't matter who did the service - a drain and inspection will tell the tale whether the owner was remiss in performing or arranging for timely and proper service - and the owner has the RIGHT to be present at the time of inspection. One other thing you have a hard time grasping is whether self service is verbotten. I'll make it easy for you - there is not ONE car or light truck manufacturer who does business in the U.S. which has language in its warranty provisions requiring dealer service or forbidding consumer self-service as a condition of warranty performance. There's a reason for that: the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. (which, if memory serves me correctly, is a f-e-d-e-r-a-l law adjudicated by a f-e-d-e-r-a-l agency - the "F-e-d-e-r-a-l Trade Commission") Said "act" also requires that BBB AUTO LINE be used prior to seeking remedies through court action pursuant to the Magnusen-Moss Warranty Act. (All that means is that, while a vehicle or other consumer item owner can legally resort to the courts, he cannot specifically invoke Magneson-Moss protection provisions in his litigation unless he can show documentation that he first made a good faith attempt at BBB AUTO LINE binding arbitration.) Certain states also require a good faith attmept at BBB AUTO LINE binding arbitration before their "Lemon Law" remedies can be sought. jsharp, you're cordially invited to read the provisions of the Moss-Magneson Act at "gov.org". Your state's "Lemon Laws" provisions are also a matter of public record.

[ July 07, 2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]