buster,
You are going to let one story of an oil analysis change your mind on whether Oil Analysis is viable to use to determine how an oil is performing in an engine?
a story on the web no less?!?!
Pnzoil dino 10W30, 4,506 miles, Infiniti G35
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You are going to let one story of an oil analysis change your mind on whether Oil Analysis is viable to use to determine how an oil is performing in an engine?
a story on the web no less?!?!
You're probably right Jason.
The Mobil 1 is probably just cleaning. Or it could be just a sub-atomic interaction going on between the specialized tri-poly-wanna-cracker-en-all steroids that roots out iron from places the engine manufacturer shouldn't oughta put it in the first place (the dunderheads).
The Mobil 1 is probably just cleaning. Or it could be just a sub-atomic interaction going on between the specialized tri-poly-wanna-cracker-en-all steroids that roots out iron from places the engine manufacturer shouldn't oughta put it in the first place (the dunderheads).
Triple_Se7en
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Quote:
The Mobil 1 is probably just cleaning. Or it could be just a sub-atomic interaction going on between the specialized tri-poly-wanna-cracker-en-all steroids that roots out iron from places the engine manufacturer shouldn't oughta put it in the first place
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I take no chances with my Mobil-1. Just add a half- to whole bottle of Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment to it. I bought alot of Mobil-1 on sale last year (Buy 3 & Get 3 Free). My engine is super-duper quiet & doesn't use a drop with the full bottle treatment.
The Mobil 1 is probably just cleaning. Or it could be just a sub-atomic interaction going on between the specialized tri-poly-wanna-cracker-en-all steroids that roots out iron from places the engine manufacturer shouldn't oughta put it in the first place
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I take no chances with my Mobil-1. Just add a half- to whole bottle of Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment to it. I bought alot of Mobil-1 on sale last year (Buy 3 & Get 3 Free). My engine is super-duper quiet & doesn't use a drop with the full bottle treatment.
You added THAT much Synpower oil treatment to your oil? That stuff is awfully thick to add so much per OCI...I guess that's why your engine is super-duper quiet!
After almost 2 1/2 years and 50K miles... I did not consider my Nissan "new" anymore. Or is 50K still considered "new" for this engine? I doubt it...
I thought of this as well, but they're both SL and were purchased at the same time. Wait... the engine takes 5 qts so I might have had a gallon of the SL and a quart of the SM, I can'. Would 20% SM skew the Moly and Calcium this much?
Nope... just ran down and checked a left over quart of Pennz in the garage and it was SL as well.
Where the engine oil will be abused on the track (Nascar track, drag strip, etc.) a robust synthetic based oil does make sense here. These oils probably allow the engine to run cooler, and they pretty much eliminate the sludge/paste that would happen in a severe over-heat. But do they really reduce wear? I don't think the racing teams are concerned about gradual wear.
As far as the racing engines go, these guys tear down and rebuild practically every race. I doubt there is ever enough time put on any of these engine components to really consider gradual wear a problem. I doubt if they do UOA's, either. It really wouldn't be important. The engine is either performing or it is not. If it is, that's all good. If it's not, it gets torn down and looked at.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
For the family sedan which will be expected to clock 150,000 miles or more back and forth to the school and the grocery store, gradual wear is important. Severe duty with the potential for extreme over-heats isn't much of a consideration. Worn out piston rings or main bearings at, say, 75,000 miles, is the concern. This calls for an oil that can deliver good wear metal numbers.
Dan
As far as the racing engines go, these guys tear down and rebuild practically every race. I doubt there is ever enough time put on any of these engine components to really consider gradual wear a problem. I doubt if they do UOA's, either. It really wouldn't be important. The engine is either performing or it is not. If it is, that's all good. If it's not, it gets torn down and looked at.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
For the family sedan which will be expected to clock 150,000 miles or more back and forth to the school and the grocery store, gradual wear is important. Severe duty with the potential for extreme over-heats isn't much of a consideration. Worn out piston rings or main bearings at, say, 75,000 miles, is the concern. This calls for an oil that can deliver good wear metal numbers.
Dan
The oils race teams use are not the same as what we buy, so that has to be considered. However, technology that works on the race track benefits the daily driver also. Oils that can keep a race engine going for 500 laps with @ 10k rpms could surely take a daily driver vehicle to 150k miles and more. The race track is the testing ground for Mobil and Castrol. M1R is used by 75% of NASCAR. Teams with deep pockets like Penske could easily find a better oil if they needed one, but they don't. Same can be said with Redline. Poor perceived performance on BITOG, but a top notch reputation. Just playing devil's advocate and looking at this from another angle.
I see what you're saying Buster, but I'm just thinking that the best oil for the extreme environment of a race engine may not necessarily be good for long drain intervals in passenger cars.
The race application typically requires just a hard and fast run on the oil. If there is a gradual "leeching" effect going on between the synthetic chemistry and the engine's metals, it may go unnoticed in a race engine.
Redline shines in the race environment because it won't break down easily and it isn't prone to some of the problems a dino oil can exhibit under extreme conditions.
In the grocery getter environment, Redline does not seem to fare so well, and generally takes a back seat to good dinos when the wear metal numbers come in. Does this make Redline a bad racing oil? Of course not, as it's a "fish out of water" in this scenario.
So, there is as much difference between Redline and Pennzoil 10W30 bulk dino oil as there is between a 750 hp Nascar and my Ford Escort. These are different animals, designed for different purposes. (I know that Redline believes that their oils are great for passenger car use, but it's hard to think such in light of the typical UOA's on 4000+ mile runs).
Dan
The race application typically requires just a hard and fast run on the oil. If there is a gradual "leeching" effect going on between the synthetic chemistry and the engine's metals, it may go unnoticed in a race engine.
Redline shines in the race environment because it won't break down easily and it isn't prone to some of the problems a dino oil can exhibit under extreme conditions.
In the grocery getter environment, Redline does not seem to fare so well, and generally takes a back seat to good dinos when the wear metal numbers come in. Does this make Redline a bad racing oil? Of course not, as it's a "fish out of water" in this scenario.
So, there is as much difference between Redline and Pennzoil 10W30 bulk dino oil as there is between a 750 hp Nascar and my Ford Escort. These are different animals, designed for different purposes. (I know that Redline believes that their oils are great for passenger car use, but it's hard to think such in light of the typical UOA's on 4000+ mile runs).
Dan
Isn't it funny, Tanker, how Mobil 1 cleans nearly new enginesquote:
Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
You're probably right Jason.
The Mobil 1 is probably just cleaning. Or it could be just a sub-atomic interaction going on between the specialized tri-poly-wanna-cracker-en-all steroids that roots out iron from places the engine manufacturer shouldn't oughta put it in the first place (the dunderheads).
No not at all. You have to take into account RL's poor UOA's, but exceptional reputation among any racing team using the oil and Molekule's explanation of Fe with Mobil 1. I don't think you can't just look at these reports at face value, and conclude oil A is better then B all the time. I could be wrong, but that is how I see it....
However, it could be Mobil 1 is an over rated oil..I don't know..I have a hard time believing BITOG UOA's when 75% of NASCAR and Mercedes/Porsche use their oils.
You drive a high performance engine and live in Florida and you're seeing high bearing wear.
The oils' you're using are simply TOO THIN. In the case of these last two analyses, you're also running them too long (causing the oil to turn acidic).
Try an ACEA A3/B4, rated xw-30 or 0w-40 (M1) and change it when the TBN is still > 4.0 (2.0 on the "BS" Lab scale); using ASTM D-4739. That will get you the lowest bearing wear possible, provided your air filtration is okay. (I think it's fine, by the way).
Trust me on this one....
Tooslick
The oils' you're using are simply TOO THIN. In the case of these last two analyses, you're also running them too long (causing the oil to turn acidic).
Try an ACEA A3/B4, rated xw-30 or 0w-40 (M1) and change it when the TBN is still > 4.0 (2.0 on the "BS" Lab scale); using ASTM D-4739. That will get you the lowest bearing wear possible, provided your air filtration is okay. (I think it's fine, by the way).
Trust me on this one....
Tooslick
Just to stir the pot some. A good case could be made here that the switch to syn was made way too early on this engine and as a result it was never properly broken in. The VQ's are notorious for a slow break-in even with dino (20k miles) and not really ever breaking in on syn.
Now that dino is in use the break-in which was more or less "hanging fire" so to speak rapidly coalesced and wear went down.
My guess is that after two or three more OCI's with dino, the M1 will show a lot better wear than it was previously.
As for the larger ramification of syn vs. dino, does anyone believe running this engine 15k miles on any dino will show less wear than 15k miles with M1 EP? Beyond that, will the engine show signs of excessive oil related wear after 300k miles going 15k OCI's with M1 EP?
In my VQ ('97 Max SE 5-speed) I ran dino at 3k OCI's up to 50k miles then went to M1. My UOA's with M1 were excellent. In addition after a 350 mile 85 mph interstate run at 95 deg F, stopping at the same gas station on the same run previous year, syn vs. dino, the engine had very little hot oil smell and the cool down had less contraction ticking. Now at 125k with M1 5W-30 EP, that VQ will bring tears to your eyes at how smooth it ramps up to the 6500 rpm redline.
Do not go with a higher viscosity. With it's DOHC and lightened valve train, the VQ was expressly designed to spin up fast. It would be a shame to choke it with a high vis oil.
[ June 26, 2005, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
Now that dino is in use the break-in which was more or less "hanging fire" so to speak rapidly coalesced and wear went down.
My guess is that after two or three more OCI's with dino, the M1 will show a lot better wear than it was previously.
As for the larger ramification of syn vs. dino, does anyone believe running this engine 15k miles on any dino will show less wear than 15k miles with M1 EP? Beyond that, will the engine show signs of excessive oil related wear after 300k miles going 15k OCI's with M1 EP?
In my VQ ('97 Max SE 5-speed) I ran dino at 3k OCI's up to 50k miles then went to M1. My UOA's with M1 were excellent. In addition after a 350 mile 85 mph interstate run at 95 deg F, stopping at the same gas station on the same run previous year, syn vs. dino, the engine had very little hot oil smell and the cool down had less contraction ticking. Now at 125k with M1 5W-30 EP, that VQ will bring tears to your eyes at how smooth it ramps up to the 6500 rpm redline.
Do not go with a higher viscosity. With it's DOHC and lightened valve train, the VQ was expressly designed to spin up fast. It would be a shame to choke it with a high vis oil.
[ June 26, 2005, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
Look at the correlation between what time of year the oil was tested (ie, the previous ambient temps) and the # of bearing and valve train wear. What you see is increased wear in the hotter weather, which is normally the opposite of what you see - due to longer warmups and more contamination in the cold. Of course in this case, we're talking about Florida. So the 55F-80F winter temps could be considered ideal for generating low wear metal concentrations and the summer temps could be considered severe.
The fluctuation in silicon(e) levels could also reflect a heat effect, ie accelerated seal/gasket leaching in hot weather....
I'm pretty sure this is viscosity related - even in the case of the xw-30, Mobil 1 formulations. One way to tell for sure would be to run the Mobil 1, 5w-40 for a couple of changes in a row and test that stuff. Do that and I think you'll see the Pb/Cu/Sn go down significantly. The Fe wear already looks okay and I wouldn't expect to beat the recent, 2 ppm/1000 mile wear rate by much, if at all.
Ted
The fluctuation in silicon(e) levels could also reflect a heat effect, ie accelerated seal/gasket leaching in hot weather....
I'm pretty sure this is viscosity related - even in the case of the xw-30, Mobil 1 formulations. One way to tell for sure would be to run the Mobil 1, 5w-40 for a couple of changes in a row and test that stuff. Do that and I think you'll see the Pb/Cu/Sn go down significantly. The Fe wear already looks okay and I wouldn't expect to beat the recent, 2 ppm/1000 mile wear rate by much, if at all.
Ted
TooSlick, ex_MGB... thanks. Both of your responses were quite interesting.
But a question... running the oil too long? Is this indicated by the low TBN.. a low TBN indicates acidity?
I thought many conventional oils provided protection past the "old" standard of 3,000 miles. Is this not true in my case?
TooSlick... I'm still not fully functional with the oil lingo, can you translate and suggest a few over the counter oils, both dino and synth, based on your recommendation to use "ACEA A3/B4" and "ASTM D-4739". What do these terms mean?
I also bought a case of 12qts of the Clean 5000. I hate to waste... would anyone recommend mixing with Mobil 1 to improve the oil make up? If so I will use in my 4.7L V8 Toyota as well as the Infiniti. I've been using M1 10W30, 8-10K mile ODIs in the Toyota and the results have always been solid.
But a question... running the oil too long? Is this indicated by the low TBN.. a low TBN indicates acidity?
I thought many conventional oils provided protection past the "old" standard of 3,000 miles. Is this not true in my case?
TooSlick... I'm still not fully functional with the oil lingo, can you translate and suggest a few over the counter oils, both dino and synth, based on your recommendation to use "ACEA A3/B4" and "ASTM D-4739". What do these terms mean?
I also bought a case of 12qts of the Clean 5000. I hate to waste... would anyone recommend mixing with Mobil 1 to improve the oil make up? If so I will use in my 4.7L V8 Toyota as well as the Infiniti. I've been using M1 10W30, 8-10K mile ODIs in the Toyota and the results have always been solid.
It's repeated over and over on here that 10W30 oils are so much more shear stable and suitable for use in hot climates than 5W30 and yet here is another one that is for all intents and purposes a 20W.I don't get it.
Chinee:
Just return the Mobil Clean 5000; if you are unable to, just keep it around, you'll find uses for it.
I have to respectfully disagree with Ted about the lower limits that he uses for TBN. Ted does not feel comfortable running the oil's TBN level below 2.0 on the D-4739 scale, or 4.0 on the D-2896 or Dexil scales. However, I disagree and I personally use a lower limit of 1.0 on the D-4739 scale and a lower limit of 3.0 on the D-2896 or Dexil scales. See Terry's post in this thread.
The D-4739 scale is a method used by Blackstone to measure TBN levels, it often produces a more conservative reading that reads about 1.5-2 points lower than a TBN measured using the D-2896 or Dexil methods.
Most conventionals are good for past 3,000 miles, but simply depends on the application. I personally don't understand why you're depleting the TBN so rapidly in this case, are you doing MANY short trips??? Some engines can just be hard on oil, and I suspect that this one may be of them and the silicon is a contributing factor???
ACEA A3/B3: I'm not that familiar with this spec. However, this spec generally applies to oils that have a High Temperature/High Shear (HT/HS) score of >3.5 and I believe also has to meet certain standards for volatiliy. Often times, this tends to attract those oils that are at least of a borderline 30wt/40wt viscosity.
I'd like to see the new GC 0w-30 to be used in this application.
On a side note, I also think that it wouldn't be a bad idea for you at this point to consider paying Terry for an interpretation when you do your next analysis.
Michael
Uhhh... hello? Is there any intelligent life out there??
This is a "dollar something" a quart dino oil. It has protected this engine quite well for more than 4500 miles. It has outperformed Mobil 1 in the wear metals column, which is (last time I checked) what an oil is supposed to do--minimize wear metals. It even beat Mobil 1 when the Mobil 1 was run less than 4000 miles.
And we're worried about TBN's, XYZ123's, and viscosity?
Looks to me like some of you guys are fishing for some angle that might explain why the Mobil 1's numbers are worse than the dino's because you just know that can't be.
Must we be dragged kicking and screaming to the truth here?
Hey folks. News flash. The Pennzoil worked. And it worked very, very well.
Dan
This is a "dollar something" a quart dino oil. It has protected this engine quite well for more than 4500 miles. It has outperformed Mobil 1 in the wear metals column, which is (last time I checked) what an oil is supposed to do--minimize wear metals. It even beat Mobil 1 when the Mobil 1 was run less than 4000 miles.
And we're worried about TBN's, XYZ123's, and viscosity?
Looks to me like some of you guys are fishing for some angle that might explain why the Mobil 1's numbers are worse than the dino's because you just know that can't be.
Must we be dragged kicking and screaming to the truth here?
Hey folks. News flash. The Pennzoil worked. And it worked very, very well.
Dan
Chinee,
Most xw-30 oils are formulated down around 3.0-3.2 Centipoise (Cp), @ 150C in order to optimize fuel efficiency. What I'm simply saying is that you need something with a high temp, high shear viscosity more like 3.5-3.7 Cp @ 150C. This will do two things:
1) Increase oil pressure, which will insure full film lubrication of the bearings at all times and reduce Pb/Cu/Sn levels....
2) Increase oil film thickness in the valve train, which will decrease iron levels even more....
The Clean 5000 should be fine, but I'd get a case of their 10w-40 grade and run it 50%/50% with the 5w-30 or 10w-30 you've purchased, simply to thicken it up a bit. This will insure you have the same additive chemistry in the blend. I would not want to mix the C5000 with Mobil 1, since the add packages are vastly different. The 50%/50% mix should get you up in the 3.5-3.7 Cp range mentioned earlier and cold weather isn't an issue for you.
The other thing I'd do is change the oil while the TBN is > 2.0 (Blackstone). Keeping this much TBN reserve will neutralize acids that much faster. Even if the TBN of the oil remains in the "safe" zone, the ability to rapidly neutralize the byproducts of combustion does decrease over the course of the service interval. Under these driving conditions, you're depleting conventional oils in about 3000-3500 miles and you're depleting Mobil 1 in about 7500 miles, as best I can tell.
FT Man,
I'd agree with your assessment, but there is still room for fine tuning and improvement here. I'd personally run a thicker, PAO/Ester based, "A3/B4" rated synthetic (GC/0w-30, Amsoil Series 2000, Redline 5w-30, Mobil 1, 0w-40) under these conditions if I lived in Florida. I believe that would also get you optimum results. When the case of "Mobil Clean 5000" is gone, I think it would be worthwhile going back and trying this. I would not be satisfied AT ALL with having to change oil every 3000-4000 miles. A complete waste of time and resources, IMHO...
TS
[ June 27, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]
Most xw-30 oils are formulated down around 3.0-3.2 Centipoise (Cp), @ 150C in order to optimize fuel efficiency. What I'm simply saying is that you need something with a high temp, high shear viscosity more like 3.5-3.7 Cp @ 150C. This will do two things:
1) Increase oil pressure, which will insure full film lubrication of the bearings at all times and reduce Pb/Cu/Sn levels....
2) Increase oil film thickness in the valve train, which will decrease iron levels even more....
The Clean 5000 should be fine, but I'd get a case of their 10w-40 grade and run it 50%/50% with the 5w-30 or 10w-30 you've purchased, simply to thicken it up a bit. This will insure you have the same additive chemistry in the blend. I would not want to mix the C5000 with Mobil 1, since the add packages are vastly different. The 50%/50% mix should get you up in the 3.5-3.7 Cp range mentioned earlier and cold weather isn't an issue for you.
The other thing I'd do is change the oil while the TBN is > 2.0 (Blackstone). Keeping this much TBN reserve will neutralize acids that much faster. Even if the TBN of the oil remains in the "safe" zone, the ability to rapidly neutralize the byproducts of combustion does decrease over the course of the service interval. Under these driving conditions, you're depleting conventional oils in about 3000-3500 miles and you're depleting Mobil 1 in about 7500 miles, as best I can tell.
FT Man,
I'd agree with your assessment, but there is still room for fine tuning and improvement here. I'd personally run a thicker, PAO/Ester based, "A3/B4" rated synthetic (GC/0w-30, Amsoil Series 2000, Redline 5w-30, Mobil 1, 0w-40) under these conditions if I lived in Florida. I believe that would also get you optimum results. When the case of "Mobil Clean 5000" is gone, I think it would be worthwhile going back and trying this. I would not be satisfied AT ALL with having to change oil every 3000-4000 miles. A complete waste of time and resources, IMHO...
TS
[ June 27, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]
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