Pat's [Goss] Perspective: thicker oil

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Originally Posted by MrWideTires


Does anybody where I can get 91 octane in Florida since it's recommended by the manufacturer?? I can only find 93 which is NOT OEM SPEC!!


Sorry, didn't you read the manual? It states OEM spec in Wyoming only. You gotta move to be in spec.
 
Trust the engineers? Like when the ford garage changed the oil cap on my ford ranger that said 5w20 but the owners manual calls for 5-30. I ran that old trick on any oil I found lying around and it still ran like a Swiss Watch at 295k
 
I don't agree with everything he says nor how he says it; but there are a lot of blowhards in this thread mischaracterizing and misquoting (or quoting out of context). He's saying "trust the engineers" as-opposed-to the local hick at the oil change quick lube that tells you to use 10W-30 in everything and that synthetic is slipperier. He's also not saying to always use thinner oils, but to use the recommended ones..
 
Originally Posted by D1dad
Trust the engineers? Like when the ford garage changed the oil cap on my ford ranger that said 5w20 but the owners manual calls for 5-30. I ran that old trick on any oil I found lying around and it still ran like a Swiss Watch at 295k



Apparently, you didn't "get it". Those aren't "the engineers", those are the guys he says NOT to trust. FFS...
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
He's basically right. Although, you can actually go about an added +0.5 higher HTHS from the oil recommended in your owner's manual and it could help you when towing, hauling, racing, and/or in hot weather. Going thicker than that is kinda useless. Example: there was a thread the other day, a guy with a '15 BMW M5 hot-rod who knew BMW said LL-01FE 0w30 HTHS 3.1 oil was fine for his engine. I tried to convince him that he didn't need anything higher than HTHS 3.6 for some "added margin" on top of BMW's own specs when driving it hard.

Of course, high fuel-diluter engines can probably go up to +1.0 HTHS higher with no ill effects. So there are exceptions, and sometimes slightly thicker is better for wear.
I don't believe there are any data sheets on BMW's new 0w-30, how do you know the HTHS is a 3.1? Castrol's Edge Euro 0w--30 has a 3.5 HTHS, for example. Ravenol SSO 0w-30 has a 3.57 HTHS. What am I supposed to be looking for in the oil that I choose? A 12 or a 14 viscosity at 100°C? Not terribly concerned with the winter weight viscosity since the car has Michelin summer only tires and I won't be driving the car when temps go below 40°F. Do I want a low 3, high 3 HTHS? Red Line Euro 5w-40 has an incredibly high HTHS of 4.3. I'm thinking it probably has less to do with the specific viscosity (as long as it's LL-01 approved) and more to do with the quality of the oil. Don't trust US gasoline sulfur content yet because the EPA gave refineries 3 years to phase it all out, so as much as I like some of those LL-04 oils, I'm going to wait another year or so when the EPA says 10 ppm sulfur is the limit, not the average.

Originally Posted by D1dad
Trust the engineers? Like when the ford garage changed the oil cap on my ford ranger that said 5w20 but the owners manual calls for 5-30.
Been there and have done that. 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee Ecodiesel - FCA changed from 5w-30 to 5w-40 because they were having too many timing chain failures in the hot climates. Corvette goes from 5w-30 to 0w-40 and says it's backwards compatible back to 1997 LS1 motors. GM says 5w-30 on the GenV LT1 in the C7 Corvette, but the same engine (L86 - different intake/exhaust manifolds) in a Tahoe/Yukon calls for 0w-20.
 
Yep. My 03 2.5 altima could use 5-30 10-30 and 10-40. Yet the same engine, pretty much, in my 09 only says 5-30 yet it shears it down to nothing in 1000 miles.
 
Originally Posted by AirBull
I don't believe there are any data sheets on BMW's new 0w-30, how do you know the HTHS is a 3.1?
The "FE" part of LL-01FE is from the lower viscosity. Any LL-01FE oil will be around 3.1, not much higher than that, if any. It's in the LL-01FE spec itself. Taking LL-01, that oil will be around 3.6, a higher visc product, again in the spec itself. ... You also asked about kv100 visc, and understand you don't need to consider kv100 at all since HTHS is the best measure of oil film thickness, your protection from too much boundary lubrication during hard driving.

Here is the main point : BMW says 0w30 LL-01FE oil will work fine in an M5 S63 engine. Therefore, they say HTHS 3.1 will work fine. ...... We can go up another +0.5 if we really drive hard though, no problem. If you take it up to the high 3's or even 4's, you don't get anything except horsepower loss from excess visc. It won't hurt your engine to have extremely high levels of HTHS like that, yet there is no benefit.

I'd say don't go overboard on HTHS. Simply add +0.5 to what BMW says will make your engine live nicely, and only if you drive hard (track, towing, arizona weather, you know).

bmw.JPG
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by AirBull
I don't believe there are any data sheets on BMW's new 0w-30, how do you know the HTHS is a 3.1?
The "FE" part of LL-01FE is from the lower viscosity. Any LL-01FE oil will be around 3.1, not much higher than that, if any. It's in the LL-01FE spec itself. Taking LL-01, that oil will be around 3.6, a higher visc product, again in the spec itself. ... You also asked about kv100 visc, and understand you don't need to consider kv100 at all since HTHS is the best measure of oil film thickness, your protection from too much boundary lubrication during hard driving.

Here is the main point : BMW says 0w30 LL-01FE oil will work fine in an M5 S63 engine. Therefore, they say HTHS 3.1 will work fine. ...... We can go up another +0.5 if we really drive hard though, no problem. If you take it up to the high 3's or even 4's, you don't get anything except horsepower loss from excess visc. It won't hurt your engine to have extremely high levels of HTHS like that, yet there is no benefit.

I'd say don't go overboard on HTHS. Simply add +0.5 to what BMW says will make your engine live nicely, and only if you drive hard (track, towing, arizona weather, you know).
When you say "any" LL-01FE will be around 3.1 HTHS, that's part of my skepticism with it, there is only one oil out there available with the spec, BMW by Shell/Pennzoil, and they aren't telling us much about what is in it. Technically, LL-01FE only says â¥3.0 HTHS and â¤1.3 SA, I'd be curious to learn more about it. Admittedly, it did appear to have excellent results in my UOA by the previous owner, but with all the oils out there that are available, with all the threads I've read here in this forum, it's just a big initial turnoff when the manufacturer doesn't share very much (and in this case, nothing) about it specs.

Most LL-01 oils are 3.5 HTHS minimum, but if I were to run an oil with an HTHS in the low 3's, I'd love to run Ravenol's DXG 5w-30: 3.1 HTHS, 256°C flash/-57°C pour, 6.0 Noack, 0.77 SA. Unfortunately, GM and BMW have different opinions on Ca; (look at my UOA and then look at Dexos1 Gen2.)
https://www.ravenol.de/uploads/tx_ravenol/pdf-print/RAVENOL_DXG_SAE_5W30_1.pdf
 
Amazing that they changed all the engine clearances on Track pack Mustangs so the 5w-50 could fit through.
 
He talks about the thin oil film between parts that keep them from touching and wearing. But he obviosly doesn't understand MOFT and HTHS as a function of viscosity, and how more viscosity increases the protection level and helps keep parts separated. Guess he hasn't been reading the scary technical papers with all that information. Maybe CAFE is slipping Pat some cash under the table - lol.

But of course Pat isn't going to say anything against the engine manufacture's oil rcomendations. But after all, it's a recommendation, not a requirement, and Pat apparently hasn't seen the owner's manual oil recommendations for the same engines in different countries where no CAFE exists.
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
But he (Pat Goss) obviously doesn't understand MOFT and HTHS as a function of viscosity, and how more viscosity increases the protection level and helps keep parts separated.

Goss could have been thinking the thinner oils recommended in some Owner's Manuals have plenty of surface-active AW & FM to counter marginal hydrodynamics, which to some extent is true. We see Toyota, for example, using mega amounts of moly in their thin oils, which gives them more confidence the engines will last. That's part of the reason why I say you don't have to raise HTHS too much, only a little, to saturate the wear benefits. Goss could have conceded that people can go up one visc grade, especially in hot weather or when towing or racing, similar to Hyundai Owner's Manual (shown below).


Originally Posted by AirBull
Unfortunately, GM and BMW have different opinions on Ca; (look at my UOA and then look at Dexos1 Gen2.)
No problem there. Magnesium in dexos1 Gen2 oils takes the place of extra calcium (TBN antacid), and they do that to prevent LSPI. Magnesum detergents mixed with calcium detergents is fine in any engine.

Originally Posted by AirBull
Most LL-01 oils are 3.5 HTHS minimum, but if I were to run an oil with an HTHS in the low 3's, I'd love to run Ravenol's DXG 5w-30: 3.1 HTHS, 256°C flash/-57°C pour, 6.0 Noack, 0.77 SA.
You could run an HTHS 3.1 oil (like LL-01FE or dexos1). I'd certainly not want to go over about HTHS 3.6 in that engine, based on BMW's own LL-01FE HTHS recommendation, and HTHS above about 4.0 is too much. The graph below shows how continuing to thicken up the HTHS doesn't do much. Wear benefits taper off. It won't hurt your engine to have extremely high levels of HTHS like that, yet there is no benefit, as the graph shows. ( https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL...and%20Lubricity_tlt%20article_July09.pdf )

hthswear.JPG


multiviscosity.JPG
 
^^^ oil_film_movies ... Figure 4 and the PDF it came from ... all good stuff.
 
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