Outhink the manufacturer.

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Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
so what is the fear of xW-20 and adequate versus optimal protection. How much MORE protection is needed?


I like how the 10w-30 keeps the valvetrain quieter in my two vehicles, versus the 5w-20 that I used before. I was using 15w-40 in my 2004 hemi truck during the 150-215k range, no issues.
 
Remember the sludge problems with Toyotas and VW. Those were do to the manufacturers recommending ocis that didn't fit the design.

CAFE standards are a political factor that effects the recommendations auto makers make.
If California gets their sb 778 senate bill pushed through you can bet it will ultimately effect their recommendations, for better or worse.


May 11, 2015




Will CA Lead the way with 10K, or is This a Requirement for Another Day?

By Thomas F. Glenn






All too often we hear that what happens in California is a harbinger of what's to come in the rest of the USA. Whether that's true or not, it's now time to take notice of California Senate Bill (SB 778), introduced by California State Senator Allen on February 27, 2015.



If it becomes law, as currently written, this bill will require all passenger car motor oil sold in California to be certified by the oil manufacturer to achieve a minimum useful life of 10,000 miles when used in accordance with the automobile manufacturer's recommendations, and to meet current automotive industry standards. The bill now goes to the Senate Committee on Appropriations. If it is approved and becomes law, it will require all automotive oil sold in the state of California to provide 10,000 miles of safe lubrication by 2018. That's close to doubling oil change intervals. Violation of these provisions would be a crime on and after January 1, 2018.



Although there are many Senate Legislature bills that come and go without becoming law, and this might be one of them, it's important to know that on May 1, 2015, the California Senate Committee approved this bill.



Whereas PQIA does not take a position with regards to this bill, the bill does surface a number of questions PQIA feels industry stakeholders and consumers should be asking and the State of California should address.



The first question is about the objective of the bill. If the objective is to protect consumers from obsolete and harmful motor oils, that's a good thing. There is no doubt that obsolete and potentially engine damaging motor oils are on retail shelves. PQIA sees this every day when it observes quart bottles of API SA, SB, and other obsolete engine oils for sale on shelves. The presence of such motor oils in the market is a concern and PQIA applauds the successful actions that the State of California already has, and continues to take to protect consumers from such products.



But that's not the sole intent of the bill. It also includes language that speaks to reducing the volume of used motor oil generated in the state. And that too is a good thing. Without question, moving drain intervals from where they currently are (approximately 6,500 miles) to 10k will reduce the volume of used oil generated in the state; but by how much, since most waste oil in the state is already collected and recycled?



Unintended consequences?



Drain intervals are serious business. Motor oil is the life blood of an engine and the "cheapest insurance" one can buy to protect what for many is their second biggest investment; their car(s). That said, it's important to change motor oil as recommended by the car manufacturer. If you don't, the motor oil can become contaminated and deteriorate to a point where it damages an engine by plugging filters and orifices and increases exposure to wear metals and abrasives which in turn cascades into additional engine wear. Further, the oil can become acidic causing corrosion of engine parts, and slip out of grade reducing fuel economy (thus increasing greenhouse gas emissions).



Understanding this, there clearly are questions that should be answered before SB 778 becomes law.



To start, do Senator Allen and backers of this bill know something car manufacturers, oil formulators, performance additive manufactures and others have yet to learn? Do they have data to clearly show that consumers can nearly double their oil change intervals without compromising the performance and durability of their car's engine?



Maybe they do. And if so, PQIA asks Senator Allen and the backers of SB 778 to make such information available to assure the bill has the backs of the consumer in the State of California. Furthermore, even if they have such data, have they checked with lubricant manufacturers to assure they are willing and ready to certify a minimum useful life of 10,000 miles, and that tests exist to prove certification? Because if they don't, consumers in California may have a long way to travel and a lot of fuel to burn getting out of state for an oil change
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Remember the sludge problems with Toyotas and VW. Those were do to the manufacturers recommending ocis that didn't fit the design.



Those are two perfect examples, there's lots more where the engineers blew it and the public got stuck with it. I'm glad I was taught at an early age to question and research things that didn't seem right to me. Just because a person has a title doesn't mean they don't or can't make mistakes. Nothing in this world is perfect.
 
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.

In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
 
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Do the engineers write the owner's manuals?

Engineers may like to overcomplicate things, but I'd blame lawyers for the 100 page section on how to belt in a pregnant lady.
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Do the engineers write the owner's manuals?

Engineers may like to overcomplicate things, but I'd blame lawyers for the 100 page section on how to belt in a pregnant lady.
wink.gif

crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Remember the sludge problems with Toyotas and VW. Those were do to the manufacturers recommending ocis that didn't fit the design.



Those are two perfect examples, there's lots more where the engineers blew it and the public got stuck with it. I'm glad I was taught at an early age to question and research things that didn't seem right to me. Just because a person has a title doesn't mean they don't or can't make mistakes. Nothing in this world is perfect.

I agree 100%, and I'm sure everyone here would, too. That's not the issue.

The issue is that people think they are LESS likely to make a mistake than the OEMs. That's ludicrous.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Remember the sludge problems with Toyotas and VW. Those were do to the manufacturers recommending ocis that didn't fit the design.



Those are two perfect examples, there's lots more where the engineers blew it and the public got stuck with it. I'm glad I was taught at an early age to question and research things that didn't seem right to me. Just because a person has a title doesn't mean they don't or can't make mistakes. Nothing in this world is perfect.

I agree 100%, and I'm sure everyone here would, too. That's not the issue.

The issue is that people think they are LESS likely to make a mistake than the OEMs. That's ludicrous.


I agree as well.The issue for me is not to believe everything I read in an owners manual to be Gospel. Common sense and doing my own homework and research plays into establishing a good maintenance regime, for me. OTOH I'm not the kind of guy who trades up or sells cars before 50,000 miles, or the warranty is up. I keep'em till the beg to be junked.

I read too many horror stories over the years to believe every owners manual or engineers words to be fool proof and the final say on what's best.
 
For every 1 or 2 engineering bumbles, there are hundreds of thousands of successes. For the most part i go with the odds. The OP is more right than wrong here.
 
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Originally Posted By: wemay
For the most part i go with the odds.


Me too. Only I like to stack them in my favor by doing my homework and research.
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Originally Posted By: wemay
For every 1 or 2 engineering bumbles, there are hundreds of thousands of successes. For the most part i go with the odds. The OP is more right than wrong here.
What's the OP right about? Are you saying stepping up a grade or using a bigger oil filter can possibly damage an engine?

Of course on an oil enthusiast board a lot of people aren't going to run the absolute minimum standard that the OM's now only indicate. The OP even acknowledged this with his use of M1 at a substantial $$ premium over other manufacturer speced oil.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: wemay
For the most part i go with the odds.


Me too. Only I like to stack them in my favor by doing my homework and research.
wink.gif



Very true and excellent point! This should have been added to my post originally. My only concern is that anyone can find anything they want on the internet to justify their decisions/opinions. We all need to be careful of where we find our answers.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
What's the OP right about? Are you saying stepping up a grade or using a bigger oil filter can possibly damage an engine?

Of course on an oil enthusiast board a lot of people aren't going to run the absolute minimum standard that the OM's now only indicate. The OP even acknowledged this with his use of M1 at a substantial $$ premium over other manufacturer speced oil.


There is a fine line between people telling you that what you are doing is dead wrong even if it goes counter the OEM recommendation, and a fellow Forum member making a recommendation because something else may be better than just 'meeting requirements.' The first scenario is what i understand the OP to have issue with, not the second.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: wemay
For the most part i go with the odds.


Me too. Only I like to stack them in my favor by doing my homework and research.
wink.gif



Very true and excellent point! This should have been added to my post originally. My only concern is that anyone can find anything they want on the internet to justify their decisions/opinions. We all need to be careful of where we find our answers.


ABSOLUTELY!!
 
Originally Posted By: stchman
I have been on this forum for quite some time and it appears to be a common theme that people on here seem to think they know better as to what viscosity, interval, filter, etc......


So Lewis&Clark should have stopped in KC ?
Steven Jobs should have stayed in his garage?
Katy Perry should have never dyed her hair blue? (ok, bad example...)
... And yet we dare, we explore (cue the music), we strive....
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Sometimes the manufacturer's suggested maintenance practices are dubious. I have two examples just from my own vehicles:

In my 2003 Saab 9-5, the manufacturer filled the engine with 0W-40 synthetic oil at the factory. The Euro-spec cars have manuals that recommend 0W-40 oil. My manual recommends 5W-30 oil. The consensus on the Saab forums is to use 0W-40 or 5W-40 like they do in Sweden. I use 0W-40 Mobil 1.

My Dodge Ram has a G56 6-speed manual transmission made by Mercedes Benz. In Europe MB recommends Mobil Delvac 50 or MobilTrans SHC DC (synthetic GL-4 75W-90) gear oil. For the Ram apparently Dodge didn't want to add another part number in their catalogs just for the G56, so they specified ATF+4. Fast-forward a few years and a lot of guys were getting abnormal bearing wear in their transmissions. Switching to a 75W-90 gear oil prevents the problem. Another best practice is to remove the shifter tower and overfill the transmission by a quart, which prevents the front bearing in the trans from getting starved for oil when climbing hills. The guys who do these two things, which are not recommended in the owner's manual, are getting much longer life out of their G56 transmissions.

These are just two examples that affect me personally. No doubt there are many cases in which the manufacturers' recommended lubricants or maintenance procedures are some sort of compromise that could affect vehicle longevity.
 
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: stchman

IMO, it is absurd to think that we know more about the vehicle than the designers of the vehicle. If the manufacturer calls for 5W-30, then that is what I put in. I don't put in 0W-40 because it makes me "feel" better. What I "feel" about an engine oil is completely irrelevant.


And thats perfectly fine. Its your prerogative to blindly follow the print you read in your manual. Personally, I engage my brain when I make a decision. Best example is CAFE dictated viscosities.

There is overwhelming evidence the drive to ultra thin oils is borne of CAFE requirements. Even the manuals language is telling. The term has changed from "best" protection to "adequate" protection. Not hard to figure that out, is it? Also, again my brain tells me an ultra thin oil is probably not the best selection in South TX. I do agree in the northern tier of the US and all of Canada - it might be.

No flames for you. This is just a explanation of my thought process. Its not about "feel". For me, with my technical background, its about thought.


I bet you $100 that if I run the 5w20 my truck calls for I will sell it or junk it with a fine running engine.
 
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