Outhink the manufacturer.

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Why would the 0W be of any significance when it's the number after the cold temp rating that gives you a fully warmed engine's viscosity. It isn't as if LM doesn't offer 0W-40.


wemay, the popular consensus on BITOG is that a 0W anything is always superior to a 5W/10W of the same top end.

IMO, it's an incorrect viewpoint, BUT it is probably more correct in the US.

a 0W anything will have a lower base oil viscosity and more VII than a 5W, and in turn a 10W. That means more polymeric VIIs (which are expensive, and take up space in the blend), will have a higher temporary and permanent shear, and higher volatility.

They are all compromises that make a 0W completely unnecessary (and probably undesirable) in some climates...e.g. I was a big fan of the 0W40s 10 years ago, and now have narrowed in on 5W30 A3/B4. Don't need the 0W by any stretch (20W will do anywhere here, although Holden DID recommend 15W for my Caprice in sustained snow temperatures), and don't need the potential shear of a high VI 40 grade.

Much like the liquimoly quote you have provided, a car in the US may be in Arizona one day, and -20F a couple of days later...a 0W recommendation for the US probably makes some sense, in being "less wrong" for every operating extreme that the vehicles MAY see, without the owner having to stretch too many synapses.

Total make a 20W30 "economy" HDMO for the asian market, where frosts don't exist, let alone sub zero Fahrenheit temps...not being a "40" at the top end saves a percent or so.

Looking at this chart (mobil PAO blend chart, not a recipe), you can see that the 0W30 has 2.5 times the VII, coupled with a considerably lower basestock viscosity (5.27 versus 6.96), leading to significantly greater NOACK.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

wemay, the popular consensus on BITOG is that a 0W anything is always superior to a 5W/10W of the same top end.

IMO, it's an incorrect viewpoint, BUT it is probably more correct in the US.

a 0W anything will have a lower base oil viscosity and more VII than a 5W, and in turn a 10W. That means more polymeric VIIs (which are expensive, and take up space in the blend), will have a higher temporary and permanent shear, and higher volatility.


Shannow, you picked 0w-30, which is the worst in this regard. It is also a grade which has no factory recommendation that I know of! Looking at the data, it appears that your 0w-30 is basically a 0w-20 with more VII to get it up to 30.

The usual comparison in the US is 5w-20 versus 0w-20, since these are the most common factory recommendations. In this case, 0w-20 is more likely to have more Group IV/V contents than the 5w-20, so much so that for the longest time, no semi-syn or (to this day) no conventional 0w-20 existed on the market.

I'm not recommending 0w-20 for Australian users, but in the US when you buy it, chances are you're getting a much higher synthetic content than 5w-20, and less VII.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Shannow, you picked 0w-30, which is the worst in this regard. It is also a grade which has no factory recommendation that I know of! Looking at the data, it appears that your 0w-30 is basically a 0w-20 with more VII to get it up to 30.

Well, there are a couple. GC has lots of builder approvals, so that's one example. Beyond that, GM has, for a rather long time, allowed for 0w-30 in Canadian winters. There are even dexos1 certified 0w-30s.

 

[wemay]

Thanks for the explanation Shannow, and to HangFire's point, don't most 0W-20 have higher Noack than the counterpart 5W-20?

Garak, good point. Especially since we've been dicussing extreme highs. Your extreme lows would, IMO, dictate an even more stringent regimen where those approvals you mention come into play.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Shannow

wemay, the popular consensus on BITOG is that a 0W anything is always superior to a 5W/10W of the same top end.

IMO, it's an incorrect viewpoint, BUT it is probably more correct in the US.

a 0W anything will have a lower base oil viscosity and more VII than a 5W, and in turn a 10W. That means more polymeric VIIs (which are expensive, and take up space in the blend), will have a higher temporary and permanent shear, and higher volatility.


Shannow, you picked 0w-30, which is the worst in this regard. It is also a grade which has no factory recommendation that I know of! Looking at the data, it appears that your 0w-30 is basically a 0w-20 with more VII to get it up to 30.

The usual comparison in the US is 5w-20 versus 0w-20, since these are the most common factory recommendations. In this case, 0w-20 is more likely to have more Group IV/V contents than the 5w-20, so much so that for the longest time, no semi-syn or (to this day) no conventional 0w-20 existed on the market.

I'm not recommending 0w-20 for Australian users, but in the US when you buy it, chances are you're getting a much higher synthetic content than 5w-20, and less VII.


Not nitpicking at all. You have very good information. In case you're curious though, the FF in my dad's Audi was 0w30. The OM says 0w30/40 can be used interchangeably though.

 

[wolf_06]

why try to put another oil than recommended? Oil is cheap, an engine is not. People tend to overthink oil recommandation, but for what exacly? I've seen many cars going very hign milleage with only bulk oil from the dealer. My beleive is change your oil often, take care of your car and it will last a very long time.

I still beleive regular oil should be change at 3k miles and synthetic at 8k miles. Theres no way your engine can fail due to oil related issue. plus the oils we have now are way better than those in the 70's I beleive.

And I dont get the 'feel better' feeling about an oil. Some try to stretch their OCI as long as they can just to see what the oil analysis will say...why?? why risking engine parts for fun? hey if you have a budget for new engine parts an labour go right ahead. but to me the 'feel better' feeling is fresh oil, period.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Shannow, you picked 0w-30, which is the worst in this regard. It is also a grade which has no factory recommendation that I know of! Looking at the data, it appears that your 0w-30 is basically a 0w-20 with more VII to get it up to 30.


Yeah it's close, but worse, it's thinner basestocks than the 0W20...and then the VII.

Originally Posted By: HangFire
The usual comparison in the US is 5w-20 versus 0w-20, since these are the most common factory recommendations. In this case, 0w-20 is more likely to have more Group IV/V contents than the 5w-20, so much so that for the longest time, no semi-syn or (to this day) no conventional 0w-20 existed on the market.


There's a few semi 0W20s out there.

Main reason that I used the 5W30/0W30 is that there are many comments on BITOG that the 0W30 M1 is superior to the 5W30, and offers only upside and no downside. I was presenting a downside, and it could apply to the 40s, or the 50.

Was at a parts store yesterday and they had 0W50 at a raging steal of a price, but I won't touch that grade with a stick.

But I do take your point about 5W20 and 0W20...Apples to apples, I'd take a 5W20 synth over a 0W20 if I was requiring a 20...I hunted down Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W20 to put in my hired Nissan to cross death valley.

And honeslty, I think if I was in that boat, I'd take a 0W16 over the ultra high VI 0W20s there.

Originally Posted By: HangFire
I'm not recommending 0w-20 for Australian users, but in the US when you buy it, chances are you're getting a much higher synthetic content than 5w-20, and less VII.


Not sure about the "chances" part of it, as to understand the probabilities, you need a data set.

If I find one, I'll bring it to the table for sure.

Most VI that you can hope for with a basestock alone is 135-140, there's still a fair bit of VII needed to go the extra 30-60 points on the VI scale that a lot of the players are pushing.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: wolf_06
why try to put another oil than recommended? Oil is cheap, an engine is not. People tend to overthink oil recommandation, but for what exacly? I've seen many cars going very hign milleage with only bulk oil from the dealer. My beleive is change your oil often, take care of your car and it will last a very long time.

I still beleive regular oil should be change at 3k miles and synthetic at 8k miles. Theres no way your engine can fail due to oil related issue. plus the oils we have now are way better than those in the 70's I beleive.

And I dont get the 'feel better' feeling about an oil. Some try to stretch their OCI as long as they can just to see what the oil analysis will say...why?? why risking engine parts for fun? hey if you have a budget for new engine parts an labour go right ahead. but to me the 'feel better' feeling is fresh oil, period.


Here we go again with the absurd idea that oil is cheap. It isn't. The control of oil by the American military costs billions if not trillions. The loss of lives in the fight to control this resource is significant and how much does the environment suffer with the use of oil and the toll it takes getting it from the ground.
So give your head a shake and open your eyes.
Your entire post is nonsense and absurd. If the lab says an oil is serviceable beyond 3000 miles what kind of fool convinces themselves otherwise,and why would they. I don't get it.
Your numbers are absurd. 3000 and 8000 miles and an oil isn't serviceable anymore. That is quite simply the stupidest thing I've heard today. Exactly what data have you got to support your absurd position.
It saddens me there are people so dumb that they actually believe this carp. And I thought people are supposed to be getting smarter.
Apparently not

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
why try to put another oil than recommended? Oil is cheap, an engine is not. People tend to overthink oil recommandation, but for what exacly? I've seen many cars going very hign milleage with only bulk oil from the dealer. My beleive is change your oil often, take care of your car and it will last a very long time.

I still beleive regular oil should be change at 3k miles and synthetic at 8k miles. Theres no way your engine can fail due to oil related issue. plus the oils we have now are way better than those in the 70's I beleive.

And I dont get the 'feel better' feeling about an oil. Some try to stretch their OCI as long as they can just to see what the oil analysis will say...why?? why risking engine parts for fun? hey if you have a budget for new engine parts an labour go right ahead. but to me the 'feel better' feeling is fresh oil, period.


Here we go again with the absurd idea that oil is cheap. It isn't. The control of oil by the American military costs billions if not trillions. The loss of lives in the fight to control this resource is significant and how much does the environment suffer with the use of oil and the toll it takes getting it from the ground.
So give your head a shake and open your eyes.
Your entire post is nonsense and absurd. If the lab says an oil is serviceable beyond 3000 miles what kind of fool convinces themselves otherwise,and why would they. I don't get it.
Your numbers are absurd. 3000 and 8000 miles and an oil isn't serviceable anymore. That is quite simply the stupidest thing I've heard today. Exactly what data have you got to support your absurd position.
It saddens me there are people so dumb that they actually believe this carp. And I thought people are supposed to be getting smarter.
Apparently not


Do you even read the silly [censored] you post? The idea of you calling anything absurd or stupid or calling others dumb is laughable.

 

[userfriendly]

I don't think Wolf_06 was recommending an OCI, but commenting from a "feel good" perspective.
Any non-essential use of a motor vehicle, including racing could be viewed as a waste of natural resources.
Most vehicles that are raced, have their engine oil changed more often the OLM or owner's manual would suggest.

As long as the lubricant is recycled or saved for another application, then do whatever makes you feel good, as Wolf pointed out.

Edit; The word "believe" is open to interpretation.
In court..."Your Honor, I believe the light turned green before I proceeded across the street".
The defendant is telling the truth, even if there is evidence to the contrary.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
But I do take your point about 5W20 and 0W20...Apples to apples, I'd take a 5W20 synth over a 0W20 if I was requiring a 20...I hunted down Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W20 to put in my hired Nissan to cross death valley.

You got me thinking now. I have M1 0W20 mixed with M1 0W40 to use in my S2000, to get a higher HTHS than standard 10W30 of 3.0-3.1.

You think that M1 5W20 is better than 0W20 AFE ?

 

[RPMster]

Looking at any vehicle manufacturer, from Ford to Toyota to BMW to Hyundai, you have literally thousands and thousands of corporate employees who work together to make up what we as consumers call "The Manufacturer." There are many things that "The Manufacturer" needs to pay attention to in order to become a successful vehicle manufacturer, and to remain successful.

One of those things, on that huge list of objectives, is to make sure the mechanical systems of their vehicles operate as problem-free as possible for as many miles as possible, while staying price-competitive in the various market segments their vehicles compete in.

And as if that wasn't enough, they must also constantly be conforming to all of the national/local environmental and safety regulations of the various countries and states where their vehicles are sold. Quite a balancing act.

The "Data Age" has been expanding and advancing at an incredible rate since the 1990's. All the market metrics the manufacturers could ever want are stored away in computer databases. Next, some of those clever computer programmers are able to design software that automatically gathers any relevant metrics for any of those objectives on that huge list.

We're talking about millions upon millions of pages worth of automotive-related statistics including numerous sub-categories and market variables: sales, time periods, repair histories, IIHS/NHTSA accident report data, consumer purchasing habits, socio-economic classes, regional differences, profit margins per model, profits lost during warranty periods, EPA and NHTSA fines paid by manufacturers for various reasons, and the list just goes on. It would make anyone's head spin (good thing computers are doing all the work organizing that stuff into reports).

That data can then be cross-compared with any other relevant metrics to create reports, and those reports are presented at company meetings. All the heads of departments within the vehicle manufacturer (engineering / R&D, marketing / sales, budgeting, quality assurance, legal, etc) are involved in looking at and planning around those computer-generated reports, at various levels and capacities.

Lastly, those department heads, along with the company execs and various strategists, come up with formulas for success based upon all those reports that have been generated from all that automotive data. Somewhere in that vast ocean of reports is a conclusion that 0W20 motor oil is the best overall choice for a variety of reasons. Those reasons could be any of the following:

(bear in mind these numbers are just for example purposes)

-- 0W20 has been found to cause no mechanical failures during 200,000 miles worth of engine testing

-- 0W20 has resulted in acceptable ring wear, cam lobe wear, and bearing wear during 200,000 miles worth of engine testing

-- 0W20 has provided an average of 2% increased fuel economy during the standard EPA testing procedures, compared to 5W30, helping toward achieving CAFE goals throughout the entire model range

Stamped and approved by Mike Jones, John Wilson, Dave Sakamoto, Bruce von Werner, and Rosco P. Rosenstein.

Now, to the next item on the list.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
why try to put another oil than recommended? Oil is cheap, an engine is not. People tend to overthink oil recommandation, but for what exacly? I've seen many cars going very hign milleage with only bulk oil from the dealer. My beleive is change your oil often, take care of your car and it will last a very long time.

I still beleive regular oil should be change at 3k miles and synthetic at 8k miles. Theres no way your engine can fail due to oil related issue. plus the oils we have now are way better than those in the 70's I beleive.

And I dont get the 'feel better' feeling about an oil. Some try to stretch their OCI as long as they can just to see what the oil analysis will say...why?? why risking engine parts for fun? hey if you have a budget for new engine parts an labour go right ahead. but to me the 'feel better' feeling is fresh oil, period.


Here we go again with the absurd idea that oil is cheap. It isn't. The control of oil by the American military costs billions if not trillions. The loss of lives in the fight to control this resource is significant and how much does the environment suffer with the use of oil and the toll it takes getting it from the ground.
So give your head a shake and open your eyes.
Your entire post is nonsense and absurd. If the lab says an oil is serviceable beyond 3000 miles what kind of fool convinces themselves otherwise,and why would they. I don't get it.
Your numbers are absurd. 3000 and 8000 miles and an oil isn't serviceable anymore. That is quite simply the stupidest thing I've heard today. Exactly what data have you got to support your absurd position.
It saddens me there are people so dumb that they actually believe this carp. And I thought people are supposed to be getting smarter.
Apparently not


Do you even read the silly [censored] you post? The idea of you calling anything absurd or stupid or calling others dumb is laughable.

I was thinking the same. Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[otis24]

New, to the conversation, but, thinking about the OP's topic in general terms (not just oil) my thoughts are this:

Let's take tires as an example. Do manufacturerers put the best tires on an automobile? When I replace my tires, should I replace them with the same brand and type as came from the factory? What about winter tires? Can I purchase a better tire for the same or comparable price than what it came outfitted with from the factory?

What about oil? If oil costs me $25 for 5 quarts at my dealership, can I buy a better oil for the same money? And what about UOA's? If a UOA shows that my choice of oil is performing better are can be used for a longer interval, should I just use what the manufacturer recommends?

Do BITOGers over obsess? Probably. I think it comes down to making decisions based on what you "feel" is god for your vehicle as opposed to decisions made based on objective testing and real world experience. I think this is the OP's point. And he is correct in that. Not that we should follow the manufacturer's recommendations blindly, but that changes be made based on objective information.

 

[wolf_06]

Clevy,

what is your point crying like a baby? data? facts?

My point was based on MY opinions and experiences, heck if you want to go 20,000 miles on a conventional oil and get oil analysis, go for it bro, I wouldnt. And you are the one jumping on a totally other subjet like a fool for no reasons hahaha! like really man chill out a bit. All I said is frequent oil changes is the minimum thing that you can at least do for you car, if you dont do anything else, at least do that.

And yes oil is cheap, a cheap insurance, pick a good brand oil with the right grade, change it often, your will keep your investment a long time. Some like to try diffrent weights of oil to 'try' or 'feel' better, but myself I go with the recommandation.

And I do a lot of city driving, so I like to have frequent oil changes, but thats what I do. So tell me, Sir, what is you opinion? you just kept going like an old frustrated fool with non sens, this is a forum here, we share opinions, ideas, experiences, help other members, and I wish it would be in a more respectfull manners than you just did, Sir.

Calling me stupid is calling a whole bunch of people stupid as well. Take a paycheck and go out somewhere...

 

[userfriendly]

Wolf_06, Click on user's name, view profile, click ignore.
A Famous BITOG quote; "I like him better on ignore".

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Shannow
But I do take your point about 5W20 and 0W20...Apples to apples, I'd take a 5W20 synth over a 0W20 if I was requiring a 20...I hunted down Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W20 to put in my hired Nissan to cross death valley.

You got me thinking now. I have M1 0W20 mixed with M1 0W40 to use in my S2000, to get a higher HTHS than standard 10W30 of 3.0-3.1.

You think that M1 5W20 is better than 0W20 AFE ?


Not sure really .... can look at some generalisations to infer "better".

0W20 AFE PDS
density 0.841
flash point 224C

5W20 PDS
density 0.852
flash point 230C

Would both infer that the 5W20 has a decently higher viscosity basestock than the 0W20.

0W40 PDS
bit rubbery on the numbers but density 0.85, and flashpoint 230C

So yeah, maybe the 5W20 would be a better start.

why not High mileage

more hths, higher density...

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: otis24
New, to the conversation, but, thinking about the OP's topic in general terms (not just oil) my thoughts are this:

Let's take tires as an example. Do manufacturerers put the best tires on an automobile? When I replace my tires, should I replace them with the same brand and type as came from the factory? What about winter tires? Can I purchase a better tire for the same or comparable price than what it came outfitted with from the factory?

What about oil? If oil costs me $25 for 5 quarts at my dealership, can I buy a better oil for the same money? And what about UOA's? If a UOA shows that my choice of oil is performing better are can be used for a longer interval, should I just use what the manufacturer recommends?

Do BITOGers over obsess? Probably. I think it comes down to making decisions based on what you "feel" is god for your vehicle as opposed to decisions made based on objective testing and real world experience. I think this is the OP's point. And he is correct in that. Not that we should follow the manufacturer's recommendations blindly, but that changes be made based on objective information.



Yes, but you should probably use the same size tires as was factory: vary the brand and tread design as you can keep the suggested 5W20, but doesnt have to be Motorcraft. You know this Man, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Formular Shell basically any SN (for instance), such as your tires will be speed rated.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Shannow
But I do take your point about 5W20 and 0W20...Apples to apples, I'd take a 5W20 synth over a 0W20 if I was requiring a 20...I hunted down Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W20 to put in my hired Nissan to cross death valley.

You got me thinking now. I have M1 0W20 mixed with M1 0W40 to use in my S2000, to get a higher HTHS than standard 10W30 of 3.0-3.1.

You think that M1 5W20 is better than 0W20 AFE ?


Not sure really .... can look at some generalisations to infer "better".

0W20 AFE PDS
density 0.841
flash point 224C

5W20 PDS
density 0.852
flash point 230C

Would both infer that the 5W20 has a decently higher viscosity basestock than the 0W20.

0W40 PDS
bit rubbery on the numbers but density 0.85, and flashpoint 230C

So yeah, maybe the 5W20 would be a better start.

why not High mileage

more hths, higher density...


Even the 10w-30 only has a density of 0.856 and a flash of 232. Interestingly the EP 0w-20 has a density of 0.839 but a flash of 235.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted By: stchman
I know this is going to get me a lot of flack, but I frankly don't care.

I have been on this forum for quite some time and it appears to be a common theme that people on here seem to think they know better as to what viscosity, interval, filter, etc.

IMO, it is absurd to think that we know more about the vehicle than the designers of the vehicle. If the manufacturer calls for 5W-30, then that is what I put in. I don't put in 0W-40 because it makes me "feel" better. What I "feel" about an engine oil is completely irrelevant.

And another one are people that "feel" they need a longer filter and putting on a filter that is 3/4" longer is going to make all the difference in the world to an engine.

My truck calls for a dexos approved oil, instead of bellyaching about that I can't use an oil that makes me "feel" good, I use an oil that meets the manufacturer recommendation.

I am a firm believer that if you maintain a service interval as per the manufacturer, the engine will probably outlast the body.


Where is the FUN in that?

Oh, and the manufacturers have NEVER, EVER made a mistake and changed their recommendations LATER due to ACTUAL in service issues, right?

And hey, as long as the recommended oil gets you thru the warranty period, then the manufacturer is happy.