Viscosity: Engine protection Vs. enhanced mileage

[ckinch1]

Use 5w30 in my wife's 2013 sienna with 2gr-fe engine, she's at 185,000 miles. They changed the oil for CAFE rating but not the engine. Not sure what engine is in that 2022 Lexus, but I'll say confidently you can use 5w30 with no problems.

 

[Carlostrece]

It's not that I (or anyone else) thought you couldn't understand the Stribeck curve. It's a simple concept that just sounds complicated. It's that we thought you just wanted some brief, easy, practical, relevant, helpful advice.

I now see that you enjoy the minutia and weeds. I think you're over thinking this topic, but that is fun when you're into that. You're going to fit in well at BITOG. Enjoy.

I doubt that getting harder on the throttle at take off would be easier on your vehicle, but I'll leave that discussion to others. I'm impressed by your fuel economy.

 

[Sunshine Guy]

(clip)...we thought you just wanted some brief, easy, practical, relevant, helpful advice.

(clip)...I think you're over thinking this topic, (clip)

All replies, brief and otherwise, have been relevant, helpful, and appreciated.

I have to agree I'm probably over-thinking this topic (I'm told I excel at this).

I did some google searching and found multiple references showing that both 0w-20 AND 5w30 are recommended BY TOYOTA for my 2GR-FKS engine in numerous countries other than the CAFE-addled USA. While that may not settle which oil is "best" for my particular driving conditions, it gives me confidence to move to the Pennzoil Ultra Platium 5w30 without trepidation.

 

[Carlostrece]

I did some google searching and found multiple references showing that both 0w-20 AND 5w30 are recommended BY TOYOTA for my 2GR-FKS engine in numerous countries other than the CAFE-addled USA. While that may not settle which oil is "best" for my particular driving conditions, it gives me confidence to move to the Pennzoil Ultra Platium 5w30 without trepidation.

For sure you can use 5w30 with no worries. In Florida it'll be an improvement, IMO. Besides, Pennzoil Ultra Platium 5w30 is relatively thin for 5w30. Pennzoil Ultra Platium 5w30 is only slightly thicker than most other brands 5w20.

I think Pennzoil Ultra Platium 5w30 is your best option because it's good oil (other than being thin per grade) and it's the chemistry that's already in your engine. So it wouldn't be a change in chemistry.

If you change brands of oil, that's a change in additive chemistry. According to Lake Speed Jr, changing additive chemistry sometimes causes increased wear because of competing additive packages. That would stop being an issue at the 2nd oil change using the new type oil. It's not a big deal, but if you're slitting hairs, you can avoid extra wear by staying with same brand/model of oil (even if you go up a grade).

 

[trd1zz]

One of those several conclusions is that you shouldn’t stray from your manufacturer’s recommended oil viscosity unless you have a specific reason to do so. After thinking about it, my reason would be this: I drive my 3.5L Lexus very conservatively, very light throttle 99% of the time.

If you always drive like an old lady and never get the revs up you are going to have carbon issues down the line regardless of using 0w20 or 5w30. Toyota D4S on the -FKS may help prevent or delay some of this but still it doesn't hurt anything but your fuel economy to drive it hard once a week. (italian tuneup). The 2GR likes to rev.

 

[Carlostrece]

If you always drive like an old lady and never get the revs up you are going to have carbon issues down the line regardless of using 0w20 or 5w30. Toyota D4S on the -FKS may help prevent or delay some of this but still it doesn't hurt anything but your fuel economy to drive it hard once a week. (italian tuneup). The 2GR likes to rev.

Good point. I don't know if, or how much, revving is needed, but one good 30+ min high speed highway drive per month is defineately helpful for keeping engine and oil clean. You might also be correct about the occasional (at least monthly) revving. I make sure my car does those things once a month.

 

[Revving2Redline]

The official weighting in the EPA test cycle is 55% city, so not hugely biased towards city driving.

But, based on the description of the elements of the test cycle, major portions of the city cycle are with cold oil. So the OEMs are often targeting the viscosity at oil temps significantly less than full hot-day-equilibrium.

I'm certain that the exact nature of this test cycle figured *heavily* in the final selection of oil viscosity grade and that OEMs aren't too concerns whether the engine wears out in 150k miles or 400k miles. They know that the real world variability is so large between the best and worst owners and duty cycles that it's almost impossible to ascribe engine life (or the lack of it) to a particular oil viscosity grade being used or not used.

These debates on viscosity only matter really in the rarefied air of BITOG. The OEMs are just running hurdle tests and if it passes, it passes. Most engines can tolerate a VERY large range of viscosity-- as they must, since oil viscosity is so extremely variable with temperature ranges that are normal for every engine.

Lots of long-lasting engines have been run on thin oils as well as thick oils. The famous example of the man who put a million miles on each of two different Tundras did so using TGMO 0w-20 on 10k change intervals suggests that there are conditions under which a "thin" oil is perfectly sufficient.

Engines wear out with thicker oils and thinner oils alike, just for different reasons.

Since engines vary so wildly in factors like how they heat oil and how much they shear it in different areas, what's "thin" for one engine might not be very thin at all for another. Film loads are not the same for all engines.

It's possible a 0w-8 is perfectly acceptable in actual running viscosity if the engine is 1) engineered with very small clearances in bearings, 2) runs a lower oil temperature of 70C or so, and 3) is designed with low film loads. Low film loads mean things like larger bearing area relative to load. Or lower cylinder pressure for a given piston ring diameter-- that kind of thing.

Note the very thin 0w-8 oils are only used in hybrids with very low average oil temperatures and frequent start/stop where speed of oil pressure arrival is perhaps more important than a point or two of viscosity.

8w would need to come from Amsoil, High Performance Lubricants or Redline for me to even be able to sleep at night. I would at least want an oil cooler and a bigger oil filter to get that fluid capacity up.

 

[DirectRejection]

View attachment 288912

Welcome to BITOG, new members.

 

[TiGeo]

Welcome to BITOG, new members.

So let it be written...so let it be done...

 

[ripcord]

The cold viscosity of 0w-20 and 5w-20 are actually very very close. Just compare the SDS’s.

The statement “If 5w-20 is used, it must be changed to 0w-20 at next oil change” is objectively complete nonsense. It all has to do with CAFE, and Toyota has to recommend 0w-20 at all times for obvious reasons. Only time you might benefit from 0w-20 over 5w-20 is if you happen to live in Antarctica or somewhere that gets extremely cold.

If I were you, I would just use regular 0w30 or 5w30 and you’ll actually be able to get more miles/time out of the oil by having some fuel dilution and shearing buffer.

If you’re worried about warranty, do not use Mobil 1 ESPx2 0w20. That oil is green, and it’s super obvious that it’s an oil not recommended by Toyota just by the color of it. If anything happens and you gotta go to the dealership, they will see that green oil, and it will raise questions.

I think the main reason Toyota prefers 0w-20 may be because it seems to almost always come as a full synthetic, whereas 5w-20 oils can come as semi-synthetic blends. It's added insurance for their 10k oil change intervals, I guess.

 

[George_Neighbros69]

Our Toyota 4Runner was previously serviced by Toyota, but I disagreed with their recommendation for a 10,000-mile oil change interval and the use of 0W-20 oil. As a result, I decided to service the oil myself. I have been using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30, which has led to an improvement in fuel efficiency from 19 mpg to 21 mpg. Additionally, the engine runs more smoothly and quietly with this change

 

[kschachn]

Our Toyota 4Runner was previously serviced by Toyota, but I disagreed with their recommendation for a 10,000-mile oil change interval and the use of 0W-20 oil. As a result, I decided to service the oil myself. I have been using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30, which has led to an improvement in fuel efficiency from 19 mpg to 21 mpg. Additionally, the engine runs more smoothly and quietly with this change

I wonder why manufacturers and blenders spend millions of dollars chasing lower HT/HS oils to improve fuel economy? Here you’re saying they would get relatively massive improvements by increasing viscosity!

 

[George_Neighbros69]

Your point is well-taken, and it's a great observation. The pursuit of lower viscosity oils like 0W-20 by manufacturers is often driven by the immediate need to meet increasingly stringent fuel economy standards.However, as you've noticed, there's a trade-off. Lower viscosity oils can lead to increased wear and tear over time, especially in older engines that weren't originally designed for such thin oils. If the engine had been originally designed to use 0W-20 oil, I likely wouldn't have seen an improvement in fuel economy. The engine itself hasn't undergone any updates since 2006; the only recent changes were to the oil fill cap and the owner's manual.The 'massive improvements' from increasing viscosity, likely stem from a better balance of protection and efficiency for engines that weren't engineered for low viscosity oils. It's a complex issue that involves balancing short-term gains with long-term engine health

 

[kschachn]

If the engine had been originally designed to use 0W-20 oil, I likely wouldn't have seen an improvement in fuel economy. The engine itself hasn't undergone any updates since 2006; the only recent changes were to the oil fill cap and the owner's manual.The 'massive improvements' from increasing viscosity, likely stem from a better balance of protection and efficiency for engines that weren't engineered for low viscosity oils. It's a complex issue that involves balancing short-term gains with long-term engine health

That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[ChrisD46]

Wow…as a long-time reader but first-time poster, in my debut week here I’ve already been promoted! A few days ago, I couldn’t even spell “Troll,” but today, I are one…uh-huh, uh-huh! Only in America can a newbie skyrocket to such lofty heights, LOL.

Seriously, thanks for all the prompt and thoughtful replies to my original question. It has been helpful, and hopefully helpful to others who likely have the same thoughts and questions. All of your replies have been good food for thought.

For those who, like me, care a lot about how motor oil affects your vehicles (this is the BobIsTheOilGuy forum, after all), I HIGHLY recommend you watch the Video linked in Post #4 above. Yes, it is long; trust me, it’s worth it. As suggested there, the viscosity question is specifically addressed in a shorter segment starting at the 18 minute mark, but if you really want a broad range of scientific, data-driven, straight-talk information that overcomes decades of snake-oil (pun) marketing, brand name prejudice, and perpetuated myths about engine oil…just watch it. I have been a car enthusiast for over 60 years. I read and study a lot, and I probably gained more unbiased, fact-based info about motor oil in that one video than from 6 decades of other sources.

So, my action plan going forward:
Although there are only 27,000 miles on my Lexus, I have only 9 months left on my 48 month/50k mile factory warranty. I just changed my oil using factory-specified 0w-20. When I drain the oil next time, I will get an oil analysis (fingers crossed it comes back with <5ppm wear metals). With the warranty expiring, I will then try a couple changes of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30, then get another oil analysis to see if wear metals decrease.

As Carlostrece points out in post #20 above, PUP is on the very thin side of a 30 grade. If I don’t see a meaningful decrease in wear metals with this -30 grade, to pursue a tiny bump in fuel economy I will consider switching down to a 5w-20, perhaps to a different, premium formulation with viscosity on the higher end of the -20 grade versus the PUP. After an oil analysis on that third option, I should have enough comparative data to decide on a long-term product that best meets my vehicle needs and driving conditions.

I realize this whole, exploratory process is picking nits. Any premium, 0w-20 on 4000 mile drain intervals isn’t going to trash my engine; I just wonder if it is the very best I can do for long term reliability. My other vehicle is a 20-year-old, Town and Country minivan I’ve had since new. Currently using 5w-20 Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage, it’s never required any internal engine work, it runs like a top and consumes very little oil. As I said, I keep ‘em for a long time so expending the effort to find the best engine protection possible seems worthwhile.

Run rwo 4K mile oil change intervals changing the filter each time . At the end of the 2nd oil change interval get a sample to send off , get the results and post in the appropriate forum section on this site asking for comments on how your engine appears to be doing ? Also if you are having any noticeable oil burning over the 4K mile oil interval (i.e. above say 1/2 to 3/4th qrt.) consider switching over to Valvoline Restore and Protect .

 

[Carlostrece]

Our Toyota 4Runner was previously serviced by Toyota, but I disagreed with their recommendation for a 10,000-mile oil change interval and the use of 0W-20 oil. As a result, I decided to service the oil myself. I have been using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30, which has led to an improvement in fuel efficiency from 19 mpg to 21 mpg. Additionally, the engine runs more smoothly and quietly with this change

Your increase in fuel economy was likely due to some other reason, but I agree that your engine is better protected using 5w30. So good choice!

 

[ribbentrop]

Not that it matters, but a friend of mine here in town in Nebraska drives every workday night, year-round, delivering pharmaceutical drugs all over to different drugstores in different towns in the state. That company bought the 2015 Honda CRV non-hybrid he drove until recently brand new. They just recently retired it to around town use because the AC broke down and they didn't want to spend the money to fix it. That Honda CRV has over 400,000 miles on it, with the original engine still running fine, lacking the AC. That car ran 0w-20 Castrol Edge all its life.

So, are you implying that, had 10w-30 viscosity oil been used, the AC would not have gone Tango Uniform?

Asking for a friend.

 

[ribbentrop]

What are the chances that a dealership would do that? It seems very unlikely to me.

Exactly. Dealers don't do oil analysis, I think, or read in some Know-it-all Reddit forum, possibly.

 

[GI_GRIFF]

So, are you implying that, had 10w-30 viscosity oil been used, the AC would not have gone Tango Uniform?

Asking for a frien

All I am saying is that Honda CRV has lasted over 400,000 miles using only 0W-20 engine oil, it has nothing to do with the AC failing. They do scheduled maintenance on time on all their vehicles.

 

[thickvthin]

One reason I like to go up one grade is safety margin. My car is driven easy, but what if a radiator hose blows and we're in heavy traffic and can't pull over for a while? Those things can happen. If fact, that did happen to one of the Jeep 4L that I owned.

I had to keep driving (on a hot day with no coolant) until there was a safe place to pull over. No engine damage occurred. In that Jeep, I had previously stepped up the oil from 10w30 conventional to 5w40 synthetic which might have saved the day.

Even if you drive easy and your climate is moderate, unexpected things can happen. Exceptionally hot days can happen. Blown radiator hoses can happen and you might not be in a safe place to pull over. So then you're driving for a while with no coolant.

At that point you'll be wishing you had one grade higher oil in it.

or a rock thru the radiator, courtesy of the driver in front. Happened to me. luckily i was only 0.25 mile from the dealer so i just drove there with very little coolant