Why so few extended life 0w30s?

[Shel_B]

Ford recommends 0w-30 in their 6.8 and 7.3 gas v8's when operating below -4 AND above 5,000' altitude

I've seen that statement before. What effect does altitude have on the oil grade?

 

[tcp71]

A lot of 0w30 oils are have Euro certifications that have EP requirements in them. It would be redundant. The 0w oils have a lot of use here.

 

[Pablo]

I've seen that statement before. What effect does altitude have on the oil grade?

Mostly - I THINK - because above 5000 feet it almost never gets 100°F+ and can get freaking cold

 

[ltslimjim]

If someone made a 0w20 that had a 3.0 HTHS that would be a good option for a GRC but I don’t think that exists out there.

Pardon my ignorance, but if that is so then why wouldn’t a 0w30 with a HTHS over 3 be sufficient instead? I also think the M1 ESP 0w30 with UOAs performed, could determine if it’s capable of extended intervals. Might be if not short tripped? Just brain storming.

 

[Patman]

Pardon my ignorance, but if that is so then why wouldn’t a 0w30 with a HTHS over 3 be sufficient instead? I also think the M1 ESP 0w30 with UOAs performed, could determine if it’s capable of extended intervals. Might be if not short tripped? Just brain storming.

I was just curious as to why there wasn’t really any off the shelf 0w30s in the extended life category. Yes there are a few 0w30s such as Vanilla M1 regular Castrol Edge 0w30.
But I would love to see 0w30 in the extended life versions because of the fact that they all offer a better overall package compared to the more entry level versions.
It wasn’t as if I needed this oil today. But I felt like it was an interesting topic to discuss. It might be a small niche but it’s something that I wonder about.

 

[ltslimjim]

Given that Valvoline R&P has been able to find deposits to clean up even when people have been doing 5k intervals with a decent synthetic, I would say that there is some good evidence that running an oil with better cleaning ability (such as an extended life version) will definitely benefit you in the long run.

It’s not just about getting your engine to 250k here. It’s about getting your engines to there while also keeping them clean, not losing any compression or horsepower or MPG. And not having to add a quart every 2000 miles. Lots of people can reach 250k with any brand of oil. Not everyone can get that far and still have the engine be in perfect condition in every way.

Well said!

My vehicle is a prime candidate for the VRP oil for the reasons described. “Clean running ability” of an oil is a key factor for it being an extended use candidate. This is something HPL has stated about their own oils here and why they came out with their “Engine Cleaner” to prep a vehicle before swapping to their high solvency PCMOs so as not to shock the oiling system, and why changing OF early on could be warranted to avoid over loading new OF while also trying to extend the interval.

I will post my vehicle’s consumption rate if I indeed swap over later this year to give it a go.

It’s had intervals of 8.5k to 14.5k miles on oils not typically marketed for extended use; except for M1 EP (regular and HM versions). I have a detailed log that I will be able to upload if/when I swap over; pending consumption changes on its 2nd interval of Amsoil SS.

The only trouble is that I didn’t have a detailed oil consumption log until I noticed it was apparent between oil changes and swapped to a HM oil as a result. There is a slow rear main leak I was trying to also address. So, I only began noting the need to top off and how much between intervals at that point. Unsure of how much the rear main leak is contributing. Anyone have experience with calculating that?

So, it’s gotten to a consistent rate of 1 Qt/4k miles. And makes running Amsoil twice the cost over the life of the oil change (3-4 more Qts on a 3.8Qt sump)…(my plan was to run Amsoil up to a year pending 2nd UOA this fall)

Therefore, it would be so valuable if VRP addressed possible stuck oil control rings and then I swap it back to Amsoil SS. For now, I’m monitoring to see if the Amsoil use changes consumption rates.

My gut says a slow rear main seal leak isn’t responsible for that much oil loss with no visible leaks on the ground; only a wet coating at the oil pan mating area between engine and transmission. It’s possible the rest of the consumption is due to extending the intervals on lower quality synthetics and having stuck rings develop.

 

[ltslimjim]

I was just curious as to why there wasn’t really any off the shelf 0w30s in the extended life category. Yes there are a few 0w30s such as Vanilla M1 regular Castrol Edge 0w30.
But I would love to see 0w30 in the extended life versions because of the fact that they all offer a better overall package compared to the more entry level versions.
It wasn’t as if I needed this oil today. But I felt like it was an interesting topic to discuss. It might be a small niche but it’s something that I wonder about.

Given the need for 0w in your area, I think the best bet is Amsoil or HPL. I’m sure the cost is quite a bit more compared to off the shelf tho. Hence this thread. Maybe M1 ESP with a couple UOAs and monitoring for any consumption changes is a happy compromise?

 

[Alien]

I've seen that statement before. What effect does altitude have on the oil grade?

We figured that out here:

Thread 'Ford: High altitude requires 0W oil. Why?'

Sep 13, 2022

In the 2022 F-150 and Expedition owner's manuals Ford states: "If you use your vehicle regularly above the altitude of 7500 ft (2,286 m) and under the temperature of -4.0°F (-20°C), it is recommended to use the alternative engine oil", where the "alternative engine oil" is 0W-30 instead of the normal 5W-30. Why do you think altitude makes a difference?

Here is an excerpt from the manual:

Materials

Name	Specification
Engine Oil - SAE 5W-30 - Synthetic Blend	WSS-M2C961-A1

Alternative Engine Oil for Extremely Cold Climates
To...

• Alien
• Replies: 103
• Forum: Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Vehicles

• 
• 

 

[Kennedy01]

Given the need for 0w in your area, I think the best bet is Amsoil or HPL. I’m sure the cost is quite a bit more compared to off the shelf tho. Hence this thread. Maybe M1 ESP with a couple UOAs and monitoring for any consumption changes is a happy compromise?

I think you have the right idea.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Mostly - I THINK - because above 5000 feet it almost never gets 100°F+ and can get freaking cold

Good thought there!
Engines need more oxygen (for better performance) at higher altitudes. That would put more strain on API / PCMO 0w oils.
Also, engines lose power as they climb in altitude. Starting at sea level, a typical engine will lose 15% power @ 5,000 ft, thus initiating an obscured breathing diet for many engines. At 10,000 ft, Horsepower drops 30%.

Where can I buy an oxygen mask for my HyunKia?...... maybe Seoul? Those engines come from the factory sick. What pills can I give it for Oxygen Altitudeitis Sickness?

 

[ndarkside93]

I was just curious as to why there wasn’t really any off the shelf 0w30s in the extended life category. Yes there are a few 0w30s such as Vanilla M1 regular Castrol Edge 0w30.
But I would love to see 0w30 in the extended life versions because of the fact that they all offer a better overall package compared to the more entry level versions.
It wasn’t as if I needed this oil today. But I felt like it was an interesting topic to discuss. It might be a small niche but it’s something that I wonder about.

They all offer a euro version in that weight which for the most part pass extended drain interval specs with a big bump in HTHS from 0w20 and a slight bump from 5w30
API oils.

 

[ndarkside93]

What is the deal with this ESP anyways? Back of the bottle label reads like a Euro oil, and has no API donut. Is it an SP oil or not? Is it suitable for low displacement TGDI's? and GDI's in general?

Digging into the mobil pdf you'll find this :

This product has the following approvals:

MB-Approval 229.31

MB-Approval 229.51

MB-Approval 229.52

Porsche C30

VW 504 00

VW 507 00

​

​

This product is recommended for use in applications requiring:

Recommended by ExxonMobil for applications requiring ACEA C2

​

​

This product meets or exceeds the requirements of:

ACEA C3

API SL

API SN Engine Test Requirements

API SN PLUS ENGINE TEST REQUIREMENTS

API SP ENGINE TEST REQUIREMENTS

​

​

Very much suitable for TGDI AND GDI motors. The oils pass SP engine tests but that isn’t the intended market so they do not seek approval. Also, some element levels may not be in line with API specs so they can’t display the Donut even though in testing they far exceed requirements.
The VW and MB specs include LSPI and timing chain wear tests.

 

[ChrisD46]

That’s a good point, and ESP 0w30 would probably be a great option for a GR Corolla

Since the small print of extended drain oils say : “20K miles *or the mileage the OM states” makes the M1 0W30 ESP the best off the shelf 0W30 going at WM for $27 for up to 10K mile OCI’s .

 

[doublebase]

And I know that 5w30 will still be good down to some pretty cold temperatures as well but that’s when it’s new. Someone who is using an extended interval with a 5w30 might find themselves in the middle of a tough winter with thousands of miles on their oil and it’s now only a 10w30 (or possibly even a 10w20) Even though it’s rare to see too many days below 0F here in my area, I like having a 0w oil in there just to be safe, as then even with a few thousand miles on it, it’s still likely to be a 5w

Interesting, never thought of that angle.

 

[doublebase]

Since the small print of extended drain oils say : “20K miles *or the mileage the OM states” makes the M1 0W30 ESP the best off the shelf 0W30 going at WM for $27 for up to 10K mile OCI’s .

Yeah I tend to agree. Mobil1 0W30 ESP is the best offering at WM right now for price/10,000 mile drain intervals. The Mobil1 SP 0W40 is probably right there with it but the 0W30 fits more vehicle weight ranges.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Very much suitable for TGDI AND GDI motors. The oils pass SP engine tests but that isn’t the intended market so they do not seek approval. Also, some element levels may not be in line with API specs so they can’t display the Donut even though in testing they far exceed requirements.
The VW and MB specs include LSPI and timing chain wear tests.

The latest Mobil-1 ESP 0W30 VOA here at BITOG does not pass SP specs.

 

[Infomercial]

I remember when castrol 0w30 was the connoisseurs choice.

These days just make your own by letting the timing chains sheer down m1 0w40

 

[TomYoung]

Not really what I meant. People are more afraid of 0W than anything in my 30+ years of encounters.

What people should really fear is long OCI’s.

 

[kschachn]

The latest Mobil-1 ESP 0W30 VOA here at BITOG does not pass SP specs.

It passes the engine test requirements but not the bench test.

But that is more of a feature than a bug.

 

[Pablo]

What people should really fear is long OCI’s.

Not if controlled

I think you meant people should fear lack of proper maintenance