VRP then moving on to boutique (HPL/Amsoil/Redline/etc) - why?

[OilStainedNapkin]

But for the 99.99% percent of folks who don't run Porsche's (or similar rich boy vehicles) at the track, it seems to be the suprior product under normal and entirely cost effective circumstances.

On a personal note, I'm into my second run of VRP in my high mileage Sienna, and oil burning seems to have stopped. Not slowed, but stopped. I lthink I'll pass on the high priced stuff and just stick with what actually works at $25 after rebate.

Is the rebate still available?

 

[ltslimjim]

But for the 99.99% percent of folks who don't run Porsche's (or similar rich boy vehicles) at the track, it seems to be the suprior product under normal and entirely cost effective circumstances.

On a personal note, I'm into my second run of VRP in my high mileage Sienna, and oil burning seems to have stopped. Not slowed, but stopped. I lthink I'll pass on the high priced stuff and just stick with what actually works at $25 after rebate.

How is it superior other than its ability to clean existing deposits? Plenty of engines that are spotless before VRP ever existed.

 

[Overfill]

Both are great. I hate to say it, but I have more faith that VRP will cheap out down the line somehow or disappear before HPL will. JM2C. probably means nothing.

 

[Intelligent Molecule]

How is it superior other than its ability to clean existing deposits? Plenty of engines that are spotless before VRP ever existed.

You make it sound like that's some trivial detail that it has the ability to clean existing deposits. It's obviously not. I've been reading on hear for twenty years all sorts of approaches to this problem, some involving potentially damaging combinations of products. This one works with no apparent downside and very low cost. I'd say that's a pretty big deal, don't you think?

 

[Intelligent Molecule]

Is the rebate still available?

I think it's available into July or August.

 

[ltslimjim]

You make it sound like that's some trivial detail that it has the ability to clean existing deposits. It's obviously not. I've been reading on hear for twenty years all sorts of approaches to this problem, some involving potentially damaging combinations of products. This one works with no apparent downside and very low cost. I'd say that's a pretty big deal, don't you think?

I simply stated the facts. And, it’s not the only oil that has cleaning or run clean capabilities. It may do that specific thing; cleaning existing piston deposits, better than anything we’ve ever seen for a PCMO. Sure, that’s awesome!

What else does it offer? There is no such thing as a one size fits all, best oil ever. It all depends on the needs of the engine/conditions, etc.

 

[Intelligent Molecule]

I simply stated the facts. And, it’s not the only oil that has cleaning or run clean capabilities. It may do that specific thing; cleaning existing piston deposits, better than anything we’ve ever seen for a PCMO. Sure, that’s awesome!

What else does it offer? There is no such thing as a one size fits all, best oil ever. It all depends on the needs of the engine/conditions, etc.

Under extreme conditions there are certailnly better options. That should go without saying for anyone who has spent any time on a motor oil forum.

 

[FlyingTexan]

Lest I be accused of not using the Search feature, I only saw (and did indeed read) threads comparing VRP to boutiques but not in the way I had a question about....

It appears, for the time being, that VRP is pretty unique in the $30-ish Walmart oil selections at least in cleaning stubborn ring deposits and stopping/mitigating oil consumption on vehicles that do so. @Glenda W. had a great thread recently that showed VRP cleaning/stopping the majority of oil consumption on a vehicle that had used some name brand and well regarded off the shelf oils all its life up until the switch to VRP. In my layperson reading here, the biggest causes of oil consumption on vehicles posted here is some sort of ring deposits. No doubt there are other reasons, but ring deposits seem to be a common theme. Assuming one uses VRP for the long haul at normie 5K intervals, could one hypothesize that the main reason an engine could degrade and consume large quantities of oil be mitigated?

Which brings me to the question rattling around in my head.....

If the above is true, what benefits outside of superior drain intervals would boutiques offer over VRP? I've read that boutiques and certain certifications for oil (Euros in particular) demand a certain add pack to keep pistons and such clean, wouldn't the anecdotal evidence we see plenty of here show that VRP excels at that? Maybe the boutiques - HPL in particular as that is the brand I've engaged with the most - use super high grade base oils of PAO/ANs/Esters that are certainly purer than VRP base oils, but how would those contribute to a cleaner/longer running engine when VRP *seems* to keep things as clean?

I am in awe of the super long drain intervals HPL and others can allow on many cars - reading the 25-30K OCIs on a members Corolla and another's Durango is daunting in a good way - so I get that doing the math may mean that they both equal out in cost over the long haul. But let's assume that both (a boutique and VRP) are the same cost or at least a few bucks within each other and you are NOT doing super long drain intervals....what long term benefits/superior protection (if any) would a boutique offer?

*I know we don't have long term data on VRP so this is more of an educated guessing thought. I'm also a fan of boutiques as they are owned by small American businesses which I go out of my way to support even if markedly more expensive.

I don’t drive on a 1/4 tank and I’ll never do a 30k oil change. Oil is the cheapest maintenance there is. I like knowing my baby has freshly oil in it. I don’t see anything that makes HPL more special than other oils outside of them being a sponsor and active on the forum. It’s no different than other companies making claims.

 

[Revving2Redline]

I was considering permanently using 3.5 quarts Super Tech HMFS 5W-30 + 1 quart HPL EC30 as a low cost way to perpetually keep the internals clean and also treat the oil seals.

You could substitute in a quart of Redline 5w30 and get a good low noack and high hths, high in moly, etc

 

[Revving2Redline]

Exactly. I sure wouldn’t run R&P in a Porsche at the track.

Id start out with 0w40 Redline and if certain modifications are made possibility of 5w50 or 40wt boutique. Porsche already starts with M1 0w40 but its barely a 40, again would look at Amsoil, HPL or Redline boutiques

 

[cammyfive79]

Some more caveats that I should have listed originally:

* VRP is not the ideal or wise choice for track work. Well, it probably isn't THE worst but there are certain oils that I can imagine are better suited for that type of driving or for vehicles used for that type of driving.
* Many (most?) of the problems in search of solutions here are related to oil consumption or picking an oil to prevent oil consumption before it starts. Many of the posts where someone throws in the towel here is because consumption passed the point of no return and it's just not worth it in their mind to keep going. VRP seems to be a cheap and effective way to combat this; of course after a certain point there is nothing that can be done.
* Many of the members here, and indeed many of the folks that have a deep understanding of all things motor oil related, drive and work on "normie cars" - Accords, F150s, crossovers, older economy cars that they are proudly racking up hundreds of thousands of miles on. With a few exceptions, most of those cars don't require stringent certifications to live a long and full life.
* While there are some heroes here pushing the boundaries of what mere mortals think is possible regarding oil change intervals, many are following the 5K rule or following a 5-10K OLM recommendation. Outside of a boutique, I haven't seen a ton of folks running long drains past that on the off the shelf $30 5qt jug selections, especially on modern and popular T-GDI engines in many new popular vehicles.

I'm with a few people here that commented that it is "fun" to try new oils even though there is not a lot of difference one feels behind the steering wheel. This is a hobby for me. I'm not trying to consolidate costs or save a few bucks here or there. The money that I save or waste on a boutique is canceled out by ordering a bottle of wine at dinner with my wife versus just having a glass each......or adding $15 express shipping to get something I want just a few days sooner. That being said, I'm trying to wrap my head around how a boutique does differ vs VRP when you absolutely are not doing long drain intervals and if the main concern for your vehicle's long distance health is reversing/mitigating/preventing deposits on low tension piston rings and consumption issues.

 

[ChrisD46]

Lest I be accused of not using the Search feature, I only saw (and did indeed read) threads comparing VRP to boutiques but not in the way I had a question about....

It appears, for the time being, that VRP is pretty unique in the $30-ish Walmart oil selections at least in cleaning stubborn ring deposits and stopping/mitigating oil consumption on vehicles that do so. @Glenda W. had a great thread recently that showed VRP cleaning/stopping the majority of oil consumption on a vehicle that had used some name brand and well regarded off the shelf oils all its life up until the switch to VRP. In my layperson reading here, the biggest causes of oil consumption on vehicles posted here is some sort of ring deposits. No doubt there are other reasons, but ring deposits seem to be a common theme. Assuming one uses VRP for the long haul at normie 5K intervals, could one hypothesize that the main reason an engine could degrade and consume large quantities of oil be mitigated?

Which brings me to the question rattling around in my head.....

If the above is true, what benefits outside of superior drain intervals would boutiques offer over VRP? I've read that boutiques and certain certifications for oil (Euros in particular) demand a certain add pack to keep pistons and such clean, wouldn't the anecdotal evidence we see plenty of here show that VRP excels at that? Maybe the boutiques - HPL in particular as that is the brand I've engaged with the most - use super high grade base oils of PAO/ANs/Esters that are certainly purer than VRP base oils, but how would those contribute to a cleaner/longer running engine when VRP *seems* to keep things as clean?

I am in awe of the super long drain intervals HPL and others can allow on many cars - reading the 25-30K OCIs on a members Corolla and another's Durango is daunting in a good way - so I get that doing the math may mean that they both equal out in cost over the long haul. But let's assume that both (a boutique and VRP) are the same cost or at least a few bucks within each other and you are NOT doing super long drain intervals....what long term benefits/superior protection (if any) would a boutique offer?

*I know we don't have long term data on VRP so this is more of an educated guessing thought. I'm also a fan of boutiques as they are owned by small American businesses which I go out of my way to support even if markedly more expensive.

The Glenda W. case study will make a few folks rethink their oil choices (or at least their OCI’s). Here you are using your off the WM shelf synthetic oils for 5K to 7.5K normal OCI’s thinking all is well and now you have ring deposits and start burning oil. Maybe in such vehicles a 3.5K to 4K OCI makes more sense after a VR&P clean up ?

 

[Glenda W.]

But for the 99.99% percent of folks who don't run Porsche's (or similar rich boy vehicles) at the track, it seems to be the suprior product under normal and entirely cost effective circumstances.

On a personal note, I'm into my second run of VRP in my high mileage Sienna, and oil burning seems to have stopped. Not slowed, but stopped. I lthink I'll pass on the high priced stuff and just stick with what actually works at $25 after rebate.

100%. I even called it a “game changer” in my thread.

 

[doublebase]

Both are great. I hate to say it, but I have more faith that VRP will cheap out down the line somehow or disappear before HPL will. JM2C. probably means nothing.

Yeah, I would say you’re probably on to something there…seems anything “good” goes away with engine oil. It “improves” and a new label and name go with it, along with new ingredients, with no guarantee of prior performance. Either that or the price goes up and you can’t get your hands on it anymore.

I’m going to try a rap in my daughter’s neglected 2008 CRV to see if it clears up some consumption and noise. We’ll see how that hies but I’m not holding my breath it’ll be much help, or around long enough to get it through a year worth of oil changes.

 

[D1dad]

I’d use hpl or similar in spring, summer and fall and valvoline in the winter. Franklin isn’t northern Ohio, but it isn’t south Florida either. You’ll still end up with a fair amount of cold mornings and idle time that’ll beat up any oil. This is going to be my plan moving forward as I just wasted a sump full of high dollar oil only to watch it be destroyed by winter.

 

[buster]

I like VRP. It was something new and different, which doesn't happen often in the motor oil world as it's cookie cutter commodity product. Most oils we see are more similar than different (see Lubrication Explained video on The Challenges of Bringing Innovation to PCMO). VRP IS innovative. One of the guys behind it worked at Infineum for 16 years.

One common thing we often see is as a car ages is they will often start to consume oil. Prior to VRP oils were only able to prevent deposits slowly over time. The better oils keep them at bay longer. Some may never need VRP. I'm not convinced any other oil can clean piston deposits as well, if at all as it's a very tenacious type of deposit. These deposits are not your typical carbon floating around in the engine. That is what most often see when looking at their filters. Or carbon held in suspension.

How Valvoline discovered it is even more interesting to me. It's a great oil that will work for a very high % of cars on the road, readily available and approved. There are questions though around it such as: can this technology be incorporated into high performance oils, can the oil withstand high temperatures and still be effective. Time will tell where it goes....

The results seem to speak for themselves. A very high % of users notice a reduction in oil consumption. And they're able to achieve this with an oil that is certified GF-7 (exceeds GF-7 actually) and not an engine flush.

It's not the best overall oil on the market as there really is no such thing but it's certainly valuable and has its place.

 

[OVERKILL]

I don’t drive on a 1/4 tank and I’ll never do a 30k oil change. Oil is the cheapest maintenance there is. I like knowing my baby has freshly oil in it. I don’t see anything that makes HPL more special than other oils outside of them being a sponsor and active on the forum. It’s no different than other companies making claims.

Fresh oil isn't a magic panacea. Most oils don't have any cleaning capability beyond rinsing away soft deposits. The standards revolve around this, it isn't about the absence of deposits, but rather limits on the ones that accrue, whether they are in the ring land area, varnish in low flow areas...etc. So changing the oil every 5 minutes with Supertech doesn't mean you won't get coked up oil control rings for example, because it's the oil's ability to resist breakdown that's at play there and absolute resistance simply isn't a requirement.

Then there's the fact that fresh oil has more volatile constituents than used oil (they haven't flashed off yet). There's a spot there, or perhaps a range, where the additive package is still healthy, the oil's volatility has declined, and the tribofilms are well established and maintained. Where this is will depend on the oil, and the application, but that's the "sweet spot", not oil that's fresh out of the bottle.

AW performance is of course also not universal. There are, like with deposits, sequences with limits, to set a floor for the amount of wear allowed to take place. Your bog standard Walmart shelf oils are not formulated to produce the lowest possible wear, but rather a wear profile that's below the limit while maximizing profit through minimizing formulation costs. Some OE standards force better performance through lower limits here.

HPL's approach, and I appreciate that the value may not be there for everyone, is to minimize wear as much as possible within the target of the additive pack in question (dexos, 229.5/LL-01/A40, C3...etc) through testing, while using a base oil blend (AN/Ester + either PAO or Group III depending on the family) that has high natural solvency and is able to actively dissolve and remove deposits, not just reduce the rate at which they form.

As one would expect, this isn't a methodology that focuses on cost but rather performance, and that's reflected in the price. They aren't a business with the intention to make themselves rich on consumer oil sales, the presence of these products is more a pleasant artifact of their racing, fleet and industrial efforts. Their head tribologist and formulator is Lesli R. Rudnick, who is the Godfather of modern synthetic oil formulation, and to get him out of retirement effectively involved giving him carte blanche; giving him the ability to formulate without cost restraints and a profit target, the quintessential "let him cook".

 

[FlyingTexan]

Fresh oil isn't a magic panacea. Most oils don't have any cleaning capability beyond rinsing away soft deposits. The standards revolve around this, it isn't about the absence of deposits, but rather limits on the ones that accrue, whether they are in the ring land area, varnish in low flow areas...etc. So changing the oil every 5 minutes with Supertech doesn't mean you won't get coked up oil control rings for example, because it's the oil's ability to resist breakdown that's at play there and absolute resistance simply isn't a requirement.

Then there's the fact that fresh oil has more volatile constituents than used oil (they haven't flashed off yet). There's a spot there, or perhaps a range, where the additive package is still healthy, the oil's volatility has declined, and the tribofilms are well established and maintained. Where this is will depend on the oil, and the application, but that's the "sweet spot", not oil that's fresh out of the bottle.

AW performance is of course also not universal. There are, like with deposits, sequences with limits, to set a floor for the amount of wear allowed to take place. Your bog standard Walmart shelf oils are not formulated to produce the lowest possible wear, but rather a wear profile that's below the limit while maximizing profit through minimizing formulation costs. Some OE standards force better performance through lower limits here.

HPL's approach, and I appreciate that the value may not be there for everyone, is to minimize wear as much as possible within the target of the additive pack in question (dexos, 229.5/LL-01/A40, C3...etc) through testing, while using a base oil blend (AN/Ester + either PAO or Group III depending on the family) that has high natural solvency and is able to actively dissolve and remove deposits, not just reduce the rate at which they form.

As one would expect, this isn't a methodology that focuses on cost but rather performance, and that's reflected in the price. They aren't a business with the intention to make themselves rich on consumer oil sales, the presence of these products is more a pleasant artifact of their racing, fleet and industrial efforts. Their head tribologist and formulator is Lesli R. Rudnick, who is the Godfather of modern synthetic oil formulation, and to get him out of retirement effectively involved giving him carte blanche; giving him the ability to formulate without cost restraints and a profit target, the quintessential "let him cook".

I can appreciate that but there are several oils that have esters+pao.

 

[cammyfive79]

Fresh oil isn't a magic panacea. Most oils don't have any cleaning capability beyond rinsing away soft deposits. The standards revolve around this, it isn't about the absence of deposits, but rather limits on the ones that accrue, whether they are in the ring land area, varnish in low flow areas...etc. So changing the oil every 5 minutes with Supertech doesn't mean you won't get coked up oil control rings for example, because it's the oil's ability to resist breakdown that's at play there and absolute resistance simply isn't a requirement.

Then there's the fact that fresh oil has more volatile constituents than used oil (they haven't flashed off yet). There's a spot there, or perhaps a range, where the additive package is still healthy, the oil's volatility has declined, and the tribofilms are well established and maintained. Where this is will depend on the oil, and the application, but that's the "sweet spot", not oil that's fresh out of the bottle.

AW performance is of course also not universal. There are, like with deposits, sequences with limits, to set a floor for the amount of wear allowed to take place. Your bog standard Walmart shelf oils are not formulated to produce the lowest possible wear, but rather a wear profile that's below the limit while maximizing profit through minimizing formulation costs. Some OE standards force better performance through lower limits here.

HPL's approach, and I appreciate that the value may not be there for everyone, is to minimize wear as much as possible within the target of the additive pack in question (dexos, 229.5/LL-01/A40, C3...etc) through testing, while using a base oil blend (AN/Ester + either PAO or Group III depending on the family) that has high natural solvency and is able to actively dissolve and remove deposits, not just reduce the rate at which they form.

As one would expect, this isn't a methodology that focuses on cost but rather performance, and that's reflected in the price. They aren't a business with the intention to make themselves rich on consumer oil sales, the presence of these products is more a pleasant artifact of their racing, fleet and industrial efforts. Their head tribologist and formulator is Lesli R. Rudnick, who is the Godfather of modern synthetic oil formulation, and to get him out of retirement effectively involved giving him carte blanche; giving him the ability to formulate without cost restraints and a profit target, the quintessential "let him cook".

Thanks for the well thought out reply. The reason I use HPL is bc I do like the idea of having some brainiacs create blends that are, for the consumer market, no holds barred. I'm never going to do super long drain intervals even though I know its more than capable of such. My question is in a case where you are definitely never doing long drains, doesn't VRP accomplish the same result as far as cleanliness and prevent/reversing (as much as possible with a chemical) dirty piston rings which lead to consumption.

No matter the answer, my reason for using HPL (and maybe Amsoil or Redline one day) is that I appreciate superior craftsmanship and try whenever possible to support American small businesses.

 

[Overfill]

I can appreciate that but there are several oils that have esters+pao.