Oil type & OCI advice for Air-Cooled car engine

[akela]

Thanks. Any hints on how to check oil's compatability "with centrifugal filter"? I don't have any clue on that

Just speculating, that it's theoretically possible that the centrifuge will separate out some heavier fractions of the oil, or even additives. Or what if the dispersants will prevent the dirt from being caught in the centrifuge? Or maybe it's a non-issue at all and there's no need to worry about it

On russian forums, the consensus seems to be to use whatever brand of 10w40, and change it every 2000km (1500 miles) or so.

 

[akela]

dup

 

[Shel_B]

10w40 mineral would be my guess

Can you provide some examples of a 10W-40 mineral oil? What exactly is a mineral oil?

 

[Aston4]

Hello,

I've got a car from Soviet era which has the following engine:
1200cc, 40 HP, 4-cylinder, 4-stroke, V-shaped, gasoline powered carburettor injected, pushrod flat-tappet valvetrain with bottom-mounted cam, 7.2:1 compression ratio and no full-flow oil filter.

Oil filtration is achieved by by centrifuge which is bolted on to the crankshaft and spins at the same speed the crank does.

Engine design dates back to 1960s. Owner's manual recommends oils defined by standards which do not exist for decades; specified motor oils are not possible to convert to "modern" viscosity grades nor specs.

The big question: what oil should I use in this engine? And how often (miles/hours) should I drain it?

Folks in local club recommend mineral oil due to abscense of oil filtration system and suggest chaning it every 1000-1500 km.

Oh, and the car is being used only occasionally and accumulates around 1200 km per year (driven only in summer period). Oil temperatures I'm seeing usually are 90°C-100°C (200-210 F).

Thanks

That is amazing. I want one. I will run it on my own custom blend of sludge and urine. For fuel. Also for lubrication. Soviet engineering sure was interesting.

 

[Aston4]

5w30, 10w40, 15w40, 20w-50.... But what about Specifications? Should I stick with something rated API SL (or older spec) due to flat tappet, pushrod design or are newer API specs also fine?





How often is 'often'? I'm thinking about changing it every season or every 2nd season, in the spring, to get all the moisture out. That'd mean every 1200 km or every 2400 km accordingly...
And no, not shared with gearbox/clutch. Gearbox has its own oil pool but that's another question. Each gear makes it's own unique noise, you can distinguish which gear the car is in even being blindfolded (not seeing/feeling the car's speed )




Absolutely no cold starts / warm weather only. Car hits the roads only when temps are 10°C / 50 F or higher.
Isn't M1 V-Twin 20w-50 a morotcycle oil? What's the difference between motorcycle and passenger car engine oil?
Regarding no difference of synthetic VS mineral - members of our local club have different view on this - they specifically recommend mineral because it's not able to hold contaminants in suspension - contaminants are getting centrifuged or settle out in the pockets or an engine thus reducing risk of getting some dirt into main or rod bearings and doing damage.
The engine itself is dirty - there's lots of black residue everywhere. Basically it's cooked oil / sludge / blow-by gasses.

Lead substitute: no, I don't use it. It's not required as there are cast-iron valve seats.

And yeah, the vehicle is a cool one. I like it. In each and every aspect it's different than most (if not all) of them on the road

Thanks!

For gearbox can use straight sludge. No need to add urine.

 

[kschachn]

Just speculating, that it's theoretically possible that the centrifuge will separate out some heavier fractions of the oil, or even additives. Or what if the dispersants will prevent the dirt from being caught in the centrifuge? Or maybe it's a non-issue at all and there's no need to worry about it

In regards to the oil everything is in solution and it won't be separated by a centrifuge.

 

[hid3]

Just speculating, that it's theoretically possible that the centrifuge will separate out some heavier fractions of the oil, or even additives. Or what if the dispersants will prevent the dirt from being caught in the centrifuge? Or maybe it's a non-issue at all and there's no need to worry about it

On russian forums, the consensus seems to be to use whatever brand of 10w40, and change it every 2000km (1500 miles) or so.

What I heard from folks in local club that centrifuge is quite inefficient. Problem with it is that it spins at way too low RPM to be efficient. Other machinery (trucks and agriculture equipment) have centrifuge spinning at constant, high RPM all the time (4000-6000 RPM range, IIRC).
Dispersants will prevent dirt from being caught by centrifuge, that's really a problem. Seems that this engine wants low to mid range of dispersant oil.

For gearbox can use straight sludge. No need to add urine.

Thanks for your valueable advice but I didn't ask any recommendations for gearbox lubrication so I think you can keep this knowledge to yourself

 

[kschachn]

What I heard from folks in local club that centrifuge is quite inefficient. Problem with it is that it spins at way too low RPM to be efficient. Other machinery (trucks and agriculture equipment) have centrifuge spinning at constant, high RPM all the time (4000-6000 RPM range, IIRC).
Dispersants will prevent dirt from being caught by centrifuge, that's really a problem. Seems that this engine wants low to mid range of dispersant oil.

I do not understand that. I have had years of involvement with dispersants and I don't see how this would be an advantage here.

 

[hid3]

I have zero hands-on experience with oil / dispersants / etc, just speculating. From what I understand, dispersants keep contaminants in suspension, or "in solution" like you said in previous post. However, if there is not enough dispersant power to capture all the contaminants, then some of them are just circulating in oil and fall out as sediments and/or get filtered out by centrifugue.

Am I totally wrong on this?

 

[kschachn]

I have zero hands-on experience with oil / dispersants / etc, just speculating. From what I understand, dispersants keep contaminants in suspension, or "in solution" like you said in previous post. However, if there is not enough dispersant power to capture all the contaminants, then some of them are just circulating in oil and fall out as sediments and/or get filtered out by centrifugue.

Am I totally wrong on this?

That could be, yes. But there is no detriment to keeping them in suspension, so a "low to mid-range dispersant" oil would not be helpful, whatever that means anyway. Have you seen blenders publish dispersant levels?

 

[kschachn]

Here are a few previous threads on centrifugal filters, perhaps they may be of interest:

Bypass Oil Centrifuge?

Hello. I looked before I started this thread and could not see where a centrifuge has been addressed before so if I missed a thread, sorry about that. I recently added an oil centrifuge to my 6.4 truck. It seems to spin up properly, but my oil color seems to stay pretty dark (cant see through...

bobistheoilguy.com

Centrifugal Oil Filter

Supposed to be better than Bypass filtration. https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/south-pacific/centriguard-centrifuge-lube-filters https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/south-...les/LT32577.pdf

bobistheoilguy.com

centrifuge

Is anyone running one of these? Thoughts on it its, function, reliability, ability... How much do these cost??? seems every site selling them does not have a list price... Example for those who have no idea what I'm asking about: http://www.fpevalves.com/productsSpinClean.asp

bobistheoilguy.com

No Benefit: Centrifuge or Bypass Filtering

Here is a claim from a Chevron blog

bobistheoilguy.com

Million mile bypass, long read

Thanks for reading, I am installing a amsoil bmk30 eabp110 on one of the trucks in our fleet. The truck is an 07 freightliner Columbia detroit 14l., emmissions Turned off, the truck has over 1m miles and right at 100k on rod and main bearings and new oil pump (they were replaced during an...

bobistheoilguy.com

Pics of Mack Centri-max filter

Thought some of you might find this neat. This is the Mack Centri-max cartridge for my EM7. It is used along side two large spin on full flow filters. I change it at every PM although it’s not required, mainly because the gasket gets stuck and is a nightmare to remove when it’s installed for a...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[RDY4WAR]

The conventional oil recommendation comes off half-baked to me. Air-cooled engines see higher oil temps, and conventional oil is not known for high temp stability. What am I missing here?

If you want to stick with something off the shelf, I think an ACEA A3/B4 5W-40 would be a solid option. The only conventional oil I wouldn't hold my nose while recommending would be Valvoline VR1 20W-50. Even then, use the synthetic version. (which has a better add pack as well) This would be my minimum recommendation.

If it was mine, I'd use HPL No VII Euro 10W-40. Red Line HP 5W-40, Driven DT40 5W-40, and Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-40 would be top shelf options as well.

 

[kschachn]

The conventional oil recommendation comes off half-baked to me. Air-cooled engines see higher oil temps, and conventional oil is not known for high temp stability. What am I missing here?

If you want to stick with something off the shelf, I think an ACEA A3/B4 5W-40 would be a solid option. The only conventional oil I wouldn't hold my nose while recommending would be Valvoline VR1 20W-50. Even then, use the synthetic version. (which has a better add pack as well) This would be my minimum recommendation.

If it was mine, I'd use HPL No VII Euro 10W-40. Red Line HP 5W-40, Driven DT40 5W-40, and Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-40 would be top shelf options as well.

Me too. And baked is a good word, with air cooled engines oxidation resistance, deposit formation and the MOFT is your friend. I’d use a good synthetic and a fairly high HT/HS along with a winter rating that’s appropriate for the expected starting conditions.

 

[akela]

That could be, yes. But there is no detriment to keeping them in suspension, so a "low to mid-range dispersant" oil would not be helpful, whatever that means anyway. Have you seen blenders publish dispersant levels?

Just curious, can dispersants keep in suspension small particles of silicon (dust) coming with the air? If so, is there indeed no detriment in keeping them in the oil, rather than have them filtered out? Do dispersants prevent those particles from causing abrasive wear?

 

[hid3]

Have you seen blenders publish dispersant levels?

Yes, I have seen that. Google for 'Motul Classic 20w50'. You should come up with black 2 liter metal can which says "Detergent level MID" at the bottom. On some pics I can see 'low' instead of 'mid'

 

[kschachn]

Just curious, can dispersants keep in suspension small particles of silicon (dust) coming with the air? If so, is there indeed no detriment in keeping them in the oil, rather than have them filtered out? Do dispersants prevent those particles from causing abrasive wear?

They are really to keep particles separated so they don’t clump together and then fall out of suspension (or just grow larger). Any wear of an individual particle would be the same but generally the singular particles are very small. It’s when they agglomerate that problems start to occur, such as with soot. Dispersants can’t work with larger particles. Those need to be filtered out of the oil.

 

[walterjay]

I always ran 10-40 in my VW Beetles.

 

[hid3]

The conventional oil recommendation comes off half-baked to me. Air-cooled engines see higher oil temps, and conventional oil is not known for high temp stability.

May I ask where the fact that air-cooled engines see higher oil temps come from? According to the gauge in the car, I'm seeing 85-95 Degrees Celsius oil temperature in the bottom of the sump, not higher than that.
On my daily driver VW Golf TDI I'm also seeing oil temps 95-105 degrees Celsius.

NB: the gauge is calibrated to the sensor, I've done it myself by boiling the sensor in water and setting the gauge to show 100*C after it has boiled for a minute or so. Sensor is a resistor-based one so it may be off by 5-ish degrees to one or another side but I don't think this is a game changer

 

[Gene K]

Shell Rotella T4 10W-30
12.1 cSt @ 100C
(This may be marketed as a Rimula there. You might be able to look up the product data sheets and match it up).

That's an HDEO that is still recommended for both Gasoline and Diesel both on and off road including areas with high levels of sulfur in your fuel.

Centrifuge type bypass filters such as the "Spinner II" have been common on heavy trucks and equipment for years.

 

[kschachn]

May I ask where the fact that air-cooled engines see higher oil temps come from? According to the gauge in the car, I'm seeing 85-95 Degrees Celsius oil temperature in the bottom of the sump, not higher than that.
On my daily driver VW Golf TDI I'm also seeing oil temps 95-105 degrees Celsius.

NB: the gauge is calibrated to the sensor, I've done it myself by boiling the sensor in water and setting the gauge to show 100*C after it has boiled for a minute or so. Sensor is a resistor-based one so it may be off by 5-ish degrees to one or another side but I don't think this is a game changer

They can see higher temperatures. You might as well plan for that possibility. No engine is harmed by a higher HT/HS oil. It won’t hurt.