New Ravenol Ultra Fuel Economy 0W-8

[kschachn]

Variable valve timing… See below.
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

What a load of unsubstantiated nonsense. It’s not about flow, and engines are not designed for a viscosity. They can be designed to tolerate a lower viscosity oil but that’s nowhere near the same as saying it is designed for one. That article has no merit and makes some pretty embarrassing technical mistakes.

Plus the “tolerances” thing again. The dude that wrote that is uneducated about motor oil and should never have written it.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Variable valve timing… See below.
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

If there’s anything the recent news cycle has shown us, it’s that government will frequently bend the rules to the point of snapping to get more people to believe its spin. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit to find out that there is a program that “encourages” oil manufacturers to downplay thicker oils than recommended to try to maintain engines’ CAFE performance.

I fully acknowledge that’s 100% speculation on my part, but I’m all out of conspiracy theories since all the rest of them have been proven true.

 

[kschachn]

If there’s anything the recent news cycle has shown us, it’s that government will frequently bend the rules to the point of snapping to get more people to believe its spin. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit to find out that there is a program that “encourages” oil manufacturers to downplay thicker oils than recommended to try to maintain engines’ CAFE performance.

Here is one example. Every CAFE award letter is written the same, note the degree of discouragement that is required.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/best-0w16-oil.344708/page-3#post-5859430

 

[ZeeOSix]

Variable valve timing… See below.
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

LoL, the headline:

"It's best to use the recommended viscosity, but a slightly thinner or thicker oil likely won't cause harm."

I agree with part of it, but not all of it.

So the OM calls out xW-20, then running a xW-16 is sill safe? Going in the wrong direction for engine wear protection. Going to xW-30 is going in the right direction.

As far as the VVT aspect, the VVT actuates and operates on every engine with it before the oil gets to full operating temperature, so even xW-20 is pretty thick when VVT becomes functional. Also, it's been discussed many times that engines with VVT are specified to use a wide range of viscosity, like the Ford Coyote for instance. It's a myth that VVT systems are super sensitive to oil viscosity.

Not much credibility in that Amsoil article.

 

[kschachn]

I stop listening when “flow”, “tolerances” and “small passages” all get thrown into one of these throwaway articles.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

LoL, the headline:

"It's best to use the recommended viscosity, but a slightly thinner or thicker oil likely won't cause harm."

I agree with part, but not all of it.

So the OM calls out xW-20, then running a xW-16 is sill safe? Going in the wrong direction for engine wear protection. Going to xW-30 is going in the right direction.

As far as the VVT aspect, the VVT actuates and operates on every engine with it before the oil gets to full operating temperature, so even xW-20 is pretty thick when VVT becomes functional. Also, it's been discussed many times that engines with VVT are specified to use a wide range of viscosity, like the Ford Coyote for instance. It's a myth that VVT systems are super sensitive to oil viscosity.

Not much credibility in that Amsoil article.

The worst part, Zee, is that the writer implies that a 10w30 is thicker than a 5w30. He kind of walks it back by saying they’re the same at operating temps, but I agree- if an engine calls for a 20-wt I don’t know any engineer worth his degree would ever go on record stating that a 0w16 or 0w12 would be “ok”, even in a pinch.

I’m with kschachn here, the guy who wrote that article was not only not qualified, he should be flogged, Sri Lanka style, for his disinformation.

 

[PimTac]

I think there has to be some common sense in the equation. If your manual recommends 0W-20 and you decide to go with 5W-30 then you probably will not notice any difference. But, if you run 20W-50 in that same motor I would expect deteriorated performance.

 

[CarbonSteel]

So, what are we talking here ... precision machining and an upscale, micron-level polishing that inherently reduces friction?

Does such effort allow for minuscule 0W-8 MOFT and similar fuel savings?

Does it really work for modestly extended periods of time, such as in an uncaring consumer's engine?

It seems expensive. AEHass should weigh in.

Below is some information about it and it depends on your definition of expensive. I paid $265 to the door for my front and rear gears. Definitely worth being able to jump in the Jeep in North Carolina and not have to stop for heat cycles on the way to Colorado after regearing.

The wear metal reduction is substantial versus black oxide coated gears.

https://www.gearfxdriveline.com/ser... Process is,leaving the “valleys” unaffected.

 

[SteveG4]

Below is some information about it and it depends on your definition of expensive. I paid $265 to the door for my front and rear gears. Definitely worth being able to jump in the Jeep in North Carolina and not have to stop for heat cycles on the way to Colorado after regearing.

The wear metal reduction is substantial versus black oxide coated gears.

https://www.gearfxdriveline.com/ser... Process is,leaving the “valleys” unaffected.

Impressive. Thank you for the enlightenment.

I do learn something new here everyday to every week.

Occasionally, you can teach old dogs new tricks. It's great!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Variable valve timing… See below.
https://blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-weight-viscosity-of-oil/

This part of the article pretty much mirrors what's been said many times in this thread.

"Oil that's too thin can fail to develope a consistant lubricating film, inviting metal-to-metal contact that causes wear. Extreme stress and heat add to the challenge. Since oil thins as it’s heated, the already-too-thin oil becomes even thinner under extreme heat, worsening the problem."

MOFT headroom can make a difference in overall engine wear.

 

[DirectRejection]

This part of the article pretty much mirrors what's been said many times in this thread.

"Oil that's too thin can fail to develope a consistant lubricating film, inviting metal-to-metal contact that causes wear.

Extreme stress and heat add to the challenge. Since oil thins as it’s heated, the already-too-thin oil becomes even thinner under extreme heat, worsening the problem."

MOFT headroom can make a difference in overall engine wear.

Yes, MOFT can make a difference in overall engine wear...as can additivation.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Yes, MOFT can make a difference in overall engine wear...as can additivation.

It’s already been established that EP additives do not play nice in a crankcase because of the water vapors, so what additives can overcome sustained metal-on-metal contact? Even the best aftermarket dry film coatings can only stave off the inevitable damage & spun bearings for so long… so what’s your magic ingredient?

 

[DirectRejection]

Additivation. The usage of carefully designed additives to create excellent wear results.

It was well known before the creation of ILSAC GF-B that careful additive package formulation would be necessary to protect with such thin oils.

 

[simple_gifts]

Making my CAFE #s while using a 30 weight specified by the mfg; maybe y'all are driving the wrong cars.... j/k

 

[DirectRejection]

It’s already been established that EP additives do not play nice in a crankcase because of the water vapors, so what additives can overcome sustained metal-on-metal contact? Even the best aftermarket dry film coatings can only stave off the inevitable damage & spun bearings for so long… so what’s your magic ingredient?

It is actually completely unnecessary for me to be specific here, as I have posted noteworthy UOAs.

The oil used produced very good results, and at very extended OCIs.

Add in novel base stock components.

We are moving into a new era of motor oil, where very thin oils are shown to be capable of results previously considered to be only obtainable through mostly viscosity.

The individual motorist can ask a simple question.

Would one rather use garden variety 5W30, even SP, or would I rather use a very thin oil with chemistry beyond SP ?

Of course High Performance Lubricants markets 5W30 motor oils that can be labeled as superior to SP.

My particular answer is in my signature.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

It is actually completely unnecessary for me to be specific here, as I have posted noteworthy UOAs.

The oil used produced very good results, and at very extended OCIs.

Add in novel base stock components.

We are moving into a new era of motor oil, where very thin oils are shown to be capable of results previously considered to be only obtainable through mostly viscosity.

The individual motorist can ask a simple question.

Would one rather use garden variety 5W30, even SP, or would I rather use a very thin oil with chemistry beyond SP ?

Of course High Performance Lubricants markets 5W30 motor oils that can be labeled as superior to SP.

My particular answer is in my signature.

So since I don’t see your signature, what do you claim is the magic sauce? It was intended as a question, since you imply you know things none of the rest of the board is privy to. If you claim to have faith in something, you should have some knowledge to be able to discuss it, correct? And you can’t claim you don’t have the time, since your reply is half a page long.

 

[DirectRejection]

No signature is required to read my UOAs.
I also provided some personal Ravenol experiences and relevancy in this thread.

Signature:
2022 Corolla Cross
HPL PP 0W8.
46k miles.

 

[DirectRejection]

So since I don’t see your signature, what do you claim is the magic sauce? It was intended as a question, since you imply you know things none of the rest of the board is privy to. If you claim to have faith in something, you should have some knowledge to be able to discuss it, correct? And you can’t claim you don’t have the time, since your reply is half a page long.

If I were to make an attempt at stating what the "magic sauce" is, (previously stated as the "magic ingredient"), it would have to be the overall formula.

Novel base stocks compenents, including AN, expertly formulated and combined add pack ingredients, are blended to produce a synergy.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Additivation. The usage of carefully designed additives to create excellent wear results.

It was well known before the creation of ILSAC GF-B that careful additive package formulation would be necessary to protect with such thin oils.

To add, for those who don't get it. This article has been posted many times in various threads.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30835/lubricant-film-strength

As mentioned before, when film thickness becomes very small or goes to zero and metal-to-metal contact occurs, the only thing left to mitagate wear between rubbing parts is the tribofilm layer on surfaces due to the AF/AW additives, aka the "film strength". Yes, thinner and thinner oils are relying on film strength more to take the place of the weaker film thickness (decreased MOFT). But, it's easy to get that added MOFT and wear protection back by going up a viscosity grade, real simple Tribology.

"In practice, it is best to keep machine surfaces separated, with the film thickness providing the best opportunity for reduced friction and wear. But what happens if these film thickness conditions are not met, such as when there is insufficient relative velocity, inadequate viscosity or too much load?

Film strength can be described as the lubricant’s ability to lessen the effects of friction and control wear by means other than the film thickness. As mentioned, the viscosity is the primary contributor to film thickness during hydrodynamic and elastohydrodynamic lubrication."

 

[DirectRejection]

There is a disconnect--even a schism-- between what ZeeOSix posted and what I posted.

It is a given that 0W8 motor oil operates largely outside of the realm of normal tribological concepts, and is largely dependent on clever design.

It remains a fact that in my circumstance, 12 ppm Fe were the result after nearly 20k miles of usage of 0W8.