More Evidence That Doesn't Support 10K Oil Changes

[Leo99]

Forgot to mention that we had Pennzoil bulk oil and could choose between regular pyb, high mileage, synthetic blend or full synthetic. Most people would just use the cheap stuff and if they were doing regular short ocis then I would never recommend spending the extra on full synthetic. But if they tended to go longer on oil changes then I recommended the full synthetic. Some people the $ wasn't the issue as much as making time to stop in.

I appreciate your perspective and agree with you.

In my industry, pharmaceuticals, failures are formally investigated and I'm well versed in root cause analysis. The investigation must be unbiased. CCN has an agenda and he's not unbiased.

Since I started working from home, my miles per year have dropped considerably but I still get out on the highway every week and I'm confident that the oil and filter that I use that are advertised as good for 20k mile OCI will be fine for 10k OCI.

Interesting that you mentioned time being a more important issue than cost. I can certainly see that.

 

[Astro14]

The internals of this engine are really sludged up. And they have documentation that 10K oil service was done. Make of it what you will.

Sigh - I just watched the video all the way through.

The first documented oil change was at 53,000 miles. The rest of them were not recorded and the video host said, "we assume they were done as part of the lease" and "the dealership probably changed it when they sold it".

In other words, and so that we are clear, he is guessing. On the basis of that guess, he comes up with 8,150 miles average oil change.

BUT HE HAS NO RECORD OF ANY OIL CHANGES BEFORE 53,000 MILES.

So, if your point is - change your oil more often than 53,000 miles - yep, we are in complete agreement.

But the rest of the video is based on supposition. On a guess of what was done to the car.

A guess.

That is not what you said. You have based this entire thread, and your entire argument, on "documentation of 10,000 mile oil changes" when that documentation does not exist.

There is no documentation on which to base your claim of 10,000 mile oil changes. This engine may have been run far longer. No conclusion can be reached from this one case because you have no evidence of what actually happened here.

 

[CKN]

Sigh - I just watched the video all the way through.

The first documented oil change was at 53,000 miles. The rest of them were not recorded and the video host said, "we assume they were done as part of the lease" and "the dealership probably changed it when they sold it".

In other words, and so that we are clear, he is guessing. On the basis of that guess, he comes up with 8,150 miles average oil change.

BUT HE HAS NO RECORD OF ANY OIL CHANGES BEFORE 53,000 MILES.

So, if your point is - change your oil more often than 53,000 miles - yep, we are in complete agreement.

But the rest of the video is based on supposition. On a guess of what was done to the car.

A guess.

That is not what you said. You have based this entire thread, and your entire argument, on "documentation of 10,000 mile oil changes" when that documentation does not exist.

There is no documentation on which to base your claim of 10,000 mile oil changes. This engine may have been run far longer. No conclusion can be reached from this one case because you have no evidence of what actually happened here.

In other words-another useless YouTube video. This forum should stop posting those things......the guy gets clicks and no credibility.

 

[Astro14]

In other words-another useless YouTube video. This forum should stop posting those things......the guy gets clicks and no credibility.

Members choose what they post.

The forum doesn't, per se, choose what is posted.

If the video meets our standards for "fair use", then it stays up.

We moderate behavior, not content.

Folks are free to make points with which others disagree, even if the disagreement is strong, as long as that disagreement is respectful, and follows our guidelines for behavior.

So far, that's where we are in this thread. It is in compliance with our guidelines.

 

[CKN]

Members choose what they post.

The forum doesn't.

If the video meets our standards for "fair use", then it stays up.

We moderate behavior, not content.

Folks are free to make points with which others disagree, even if the disagreement is strong, as long as that disagreement is respectful, and follows our guidelines for behavior.

Agreed.

 

[Astro14]

Agreed. In the mean time whatever YouTube presenter gets revenue......based on half truths, misleading information, sometimes outright lies, etc. There is good information out there....but it seems that's not what gets posted on here.

On that point, we agree - YouTube is full of bad information. In nearly every topic. So many people with a camera and a willingness to record video of their opinions.

Youtube makes no attempt to moderate on the basis of accuracy, or truthfulness, that I can tell.

 

[TiGeo]

Skip the McDonald's meal and the chocolate shake and change your oil. Sugar is not good for you anyways! So I was told.

It's a win win situation. Talk about synergy. Clean oil and less sugar in your body ... You'll sleep better! No?

Or have your Mickey D's AND clean oil at 10k!

 

[VersatileGuy]

There is no proof of that. Many Toyotas are motoring along without issue with 10k OCI. Based on so many engines in the "control" group safely going 10k OCI, this points to an engine problem not an OCI problem. If it was the 10k OCI as the root cause, we'd see a lot more failed Toyota engines than we do.

Having driven a 1zz-FE when it was new, and a steady dose of dino oil thanks to a dealership promo of 35 dollars off parts or service, I could, back in the day, notice that at about 4000 miles, the oil was shot and definitely so by 5000. It's because when the new oil got put in, the engine clearly felt "lighter and free" with the fresh oil.

The other Toyota fluid I dealt with was their coolant. Lost a radiator at about 10 years and 90k. Their pink stuff is officially rated for 10 years, 100k.

It suffices to say that Toyota overstates their fluid's lifespan by about 125 percent. Toyota has a habit of overbuilding their engines though, so they can take abuse better than most of the competition. Overbuilding an engine doesn't disprove wear is occurring too much, it makes it a non-issue in the moment.

Furthermore, the parts operate a continuous basis and wear continuously. The only thing is, humans don't care about a few micrometers or less(unless it is a machinist).

But there is another psychological factor - obtaining of revenues. Car makers, even Toyota, cannot have vehicles that last too long because that means no money in their coffers, not only profit, but the capital to do things. So there will always be a conflict of interest of keeping the vehicle running for a set period of time but not after.

Another thing, when the numbers get larger enough, humans start falsely treating numbers as equal. 40 years is much longer than 20 years of a car lasting, but most people treat the periods as exactly the same. The same applies to perceiving a senior citizen. The 70 year old and 100 year old are treated as peers even though the older person could be the parent of the 70 year old.
My mom's Matrix had a fuel pump last 17 years and about 224.8k. Sounds good. But it was ran dry about three times, put near empty a lot, cheap gas. As I said before, the parts are well built, but it obviously bit the bullet sooner rather than later due to the more severe operating conditions.

 

[TomYoung]

Simply put, blanket statements about how far an oil can go can get someone in trouble. If a person wants to know for sure how long an oil can go, pick the oil, use it and get a UOA to determine the condition of the oil. If you feel lucky and think in this example 10K is the goal, go for it and get a UOA. You'll either be pleasantly surprised or disappointed. A safer approach could mean taking a sample via the dipstick tube at 5K or 7.5K and make the determination based on that. Bottom line taking the advice of someone else can be fools errand imo.

A UOA does not tell you much about sludge and contamination.

 

[TomYoung]

10K on the wrong oil = fail.

10K on the proper oil = success.

We have been through this so many times.

I do 10K on the two V-12s. I’ve posted numerous pictures of spotless internals. Spotless.

But 5K on conventional oil led to severe sludge in two of my Volvos.

It is not a matter of the interval, it is a combination of oil specification, interval, and engine particulars.

The V12s, I assume, held 10 quarts or more of oil. Also, why use conventional oils at all. Your point overall is excellent, that there are many variables impacting this from car to car and driver to driver.

 

[TomYoung]

CarCareNut is meticulous.

The key point is that more people than realized should go for a Severe Service maintenance plan.

CCN did an oil change on a Corolla GR Hatchback.

He used M1 instead of TGMO because of the RC ("Resource Conserving") label being there with the M1, and not with the TGMO.

Details always matter.
YMMV.

We all know our driving conditions, and we all have the capability of being informed about our drivetrains.

I agree. The Carcarenut guy might be dismissed for not knowing the specific oil that was used in the 170k Camry, but the likelihood is that the oil was in spec and was adequate. His argument is that the OCI is too long. That’s not a crazy argument in general, but most certainly on a car with a known sludging issue. This guy is a well-seasoned mechanic, whose shop is kept fantastically clean. He focuses on this one brand (two brands) and is always working on 300,000 mile machines. I would not be so quick to dismiss his well informed opinion.

I also like the way he is in heaven when he opens the factory short block and tells you how it’s a no compromise solution.

Lastly, I think it’s cool that we are living in an age where an engine fails at 170,000 miles and it’s considered a failure.

 

[hrv]

I have always changed my oil on a Honda when the oil life reaches 50 percent...thats around 7000 miles...works for me...

 

[billt460]

I agree. The Carcarenut guy might be dismissed for not knowing the specific oil that was used in the 170k Camry, but the likelihood is that the oil was in spec and was adequate. His argument is that the OCI is too long. That’s not a crazy argument in general, but most certainly on a car with a known sludging issue. This guy is a well-seasoned mechanic, whose shop is kept fantastically clean. He focuses on this one brand (two brands) and is always working on 300,000 mile machines. I would not be so quick to dismiss his well informed opinion.

I also like the way he is in heaven when he opens the factory short block and tells you how it’s a no compromise solution.

Lastly, I think it’s cool that we are living in an age where an engine fails at 170,000 miles and it’s considered a failure.

I agree 100%. If you look at how that whole story, (video) unfolded, anyone with 2 eyes and ears can clearly see and hear the reasoning, that in this case 10K is far too long of a OCI. And the guy has a $6,000.00 engine replacement job to prove it.

1). The guy purchases a brand new Toyota.

2). He mentions to the dealer at the time of purchase, that he religiously changes his oil every 5,000 miles.

3). The dealer then informs him that is completely unnecessary. And proceeds to tell him that he only needs to change it every 10,000 miles, as per the Manual that came with his new vehicle.

4). The guy then proceeds to drive his vehicle for almost 180,000 miles, taking the car to the dealer to have the oil changed every 10,000 miles.... As he was instructed to do by the Toyota dealer that sold him the car.

5). After 18 oil changes later, his vehicle is consuming so much oil, he brings it in complaining of the ever increasing oil consumption that is getting worse.

6). His reward for listening to the dealer for of all of this, is a $6,000.00 out of warranty short block installation........

Even if you figure it at a ridiculous price of $100.00 per oil change, those added 18 oil changes, (every 5K instead of 10K), would have only cost him $1,800.00, spread out over a lengthy period.

And in all likelihood he would have the same engine in his vehicle. Because his rings wouldn't have coked and gummed up seizing in their grooves, thereby destroying the cylinder walls in the process.

 

[billt460]

I have always changed my oil on a Honda when the oil life reaches 50 percent...thats around 7000 miles...works for me...

Does your Honda have any fuel dilution issues?

 

[hrv]

Does your Honda have any fuel dilution issues?

NO. I have a 2021 Honda HRV with the 1.8...

 

[4WD]

Folks have been pointing it out for some time in this thread. I now fully understand you are here to give opinions and not for self education.

I don’t think any opinions have been - nor will be changed from this video or the 100+ posts. Pretty unique crowd here …

 

[350Rocket]

I appreciate your perspective and agree with you.

In my industry, pharmaceuticals, failures are formally investigated and I'm well versed in root cause analysis. The investigation must be unbiased. CCN has an agenda and he's not unbiased.

Since I started working from home, my miles per year have dropped considerably but I still get out on the highway every week and I'm confident that the oil and filter that I use that are advertised as good for 20k mile OCI will be fine for 10k OCI.

Interesting that you mentioned time being a more important issue than cost. I can certainly see that.

Understood. When I say time, it's also that most people that take a lot of time to put miles on are people who live and work in the city....do 4 miles to work, 1 mile at much, 2 miles to grocery store, then home. Similar thing Monday to Friday. These were the vehicles we saw a lot of sludge starting to build up.
If your vehicle sits all week and then you go 30+ miles round trip, next week you go 100 miles somewhere, the oil is going to last a long time.

It's not the time so much as the engine hours, heat cycles and number of cold starts. Among many other factors.

 

[350Rocket]

I agree 100%. If you look at how that whole story, (video) unfolded, anyone with 2 eyes and ears can clearly see and hear the reasoning, that in this case 10K is far too long of a OCI. And the guy has a $6,000.00 engine replacement job to prove it.

1). The guy purchases a brand new Toyota.

2). He mentions to the dealer at the time of purchase, that he religiously changes his oil every 5,000 miles.

3). The dealer then informs him that is completely unnecessary. And proceeds to tell him that he only needs to change it every 10,000 miles, as per the Manual that came with his new vehicle.

4). The guy then proceeds to drive his vehicle for almost 180,000 miles, taking the car to the dealer to have the oil changed every 10,000 miles.... As he was instructed to do by the Toyota dealer that sold him the car.

5). After 18 oil changes later, his vehicle is consuming so much oil, he brings it in complaining of the ever increasing oil consumption that is getting worse.

6). His reward for listening to the dealer for of all of this, is a $6,000.00 out of warranty short block installation........

Even if you figure it at a ridiculous price of $100.00 per oil change, those added 18 oil changes, (every 5K instead of 10K), would have only cost him $1,800.00, spread out over a lengthy period.

And in all likelihood he would have the same engine in his vehicle. Because his rings wouldn't have coked and gummed up seizing in their grooves, thereby destroying the cylinder walls in the process.

I watched that video a while back and I will say that is definitely my feelings of what happened with it. The dealership was wrong to convince him to just blindly go 10k. They don't have an oil life monitor like GM's.

I got to see other similar scenarios. We had at least a few Toyota owners ask why their car was burning so much oil? We didn't get to do a teardown but my guess is plugged up drainback holes in the pistons.

 

[dnewton3]

5K mile OCIs are just as arbitrary as 10k mile OCIs; it's just a number someone guessed at:
- 5k mile OCIs would be a waste of money in some engines with good oils
- 5k mile OCIs would be a concern of long-term failure on other engines with jobber shop oils
The point is that the value of "X" miles is just some old skool thinking that the individual makes, based on a LOT of assumptions they don't state out loud. See my list several pages back ...
What makes "5k" miles the perfect answer? Especially when 5k mile intervals have shown to lead to failure in some engines (some 4cyl Toyotas; SL2s; etc). The "perfect" OCI answer became "3k" miles. The point being that the perfect answer was perfect, until it met some condition that didn't align with its perfectness.
If 10k miles is too many, then why now 7.5K miles? If 7.5k miles is too many, why not 5k? But when 5k miles is too many, then 3k must be the answer, right? Until it's not ...

The general public doesn't have the knowledge (or desire) to understand the topic like an informed BITOGer. And so these videos pop up in an effort to "educate" the public, and also to fill the YT source with pocket cash. YT is a tool; it can be very informational, or very misleading. It's up to the consumer to be able to discern what's "best". BITOGers should be different; we should be able to see through this kind of blanket-statement, one-size-fits-all garbage and make a "better" decision for our applications.



As for the "proof" in some of these kinds of videos ... anytime you have missing info, and then fill in that info with your own assumptions, then proof is absent and supposition is present. Science and credibility do not fare well in the realm of guesses and assumptions.

 

[Jeep_Riot]

Update: Do not take advice from YouTube.

Wait! Hole up! I’ve darn near fixed everything in my life and saved billions of dollars from watching YouTube videos.