Mobil 1 High-Mileage oils possibly mostly alkylated naphthalene (AN) base stocks

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by buster
Thanks Gokhan. So based on cost, wouldn't using a significant amount of AN drive the price up for the HM oils?

Yes, but Mobil 1 make up for the increased cost of AN by drastically reduced or eliminated amounts of PAO in their high-mileage oils. Unlike their most other flavors, their high-mileage oils contain little or no PAO.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by buster
Thanks Gokhan. So based on cost, wouldn't using a significant amount of AN drive the price up for the HM oils?

Yes, but Mobil 1 make up for the increased cost of AN by drastically reduced or eliminated amounts of PAO in their high-mileage oils. Unlike their most other flavors, their high-mileage oils contain little or no PAO.



Good point, that could be the case.

 

[Y_K]

Scientifically, how do we know all this is true? Can you replicate this in your lab? Or is this just a conjecture? How come M1 0W-40 FS is priced the same as the vanilla M1 then?
Disclaimer: I am using AP 5W-30 in 3 vehicles at the moment, but will change for something 'simple' for the warm season.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Y_K
Scientifically, how do we know all this is true? Can you replicate this in your lab? Or is this just a conjecture? How come M1 0W-40 FS is priced the same as the vanilla M1 then?
Disclaimer: I am using AP 5W-30 in 3 vehicles at the moment, but will change for something 'simple' for the warm season.


It's a theory.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
... It's a theory.
Or maybe just a hypothesis until tested?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
... It's a theory.
Or maybe just a hypothesis until tested?


Perhaps.

 

[Garak]

Or a wild guess. The claim is, however, "mostly AN base stocks." That means over 50%. It's possible, and it would be intriguing. What we do have, though, is a guess based upon an untested relationship based upon an extrapolation of an extrapolation. I want there to be something there, but the evidence is lacking.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Y_K
How come M1 0W-40 FS is priced the same as the vanilla M1 then?

The quality and type of the base oil varies dramatically among M1 flavors. Nevertheless, the pricing is the same except for the EP, AP, and ESP flavors.

Code
Oil PAO GTL Group III POE AN



Mobil 1 0W-16 70-80 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 AFE 0W-30 10-20 20-30 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 AP 0W-20 60-70 yes

Mobil 1 AP 5W-20 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 AP 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 60-70 yes

Mobil 1 EP 10W-30 1-5 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 EP 5W-20 20-30 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 0W-20 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-20 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 ESP Form. 0W-40 5-10 60-70 5-7 no

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 10-20 50-60 5-8 no

Mobil 1 HM 0W-20 10-20 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 1-5 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 HM 10W-40 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 HM 5W-20 1-5 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 HM 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 40-50 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 TP 0W-20 50-60 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 TP 5W-20 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 TP 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 0W-20 30-40 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 10W-30 1-5 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 5W-20 40-50 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1â„¢ ESP x2 0W-20 20-30 50-6 6-8 no


The data is from the MSDSs, except for the POE and AN, which is from FTIR. The percentages are for the overall oil, including the additives and VII, not only the base oil.

The MSDS Group III data does not always include all the Group III base stocks in the oil. However, the PAO and GTL data should be accurate within the range given. The POE is estimated from FTIR. Any possibly POE content less than 1 - 2% is not shown, as it could be due to an esterized additive. The AN content is confirmed by FTIR but the amount is not estimated.

Last but not least, omissions and errors are possible and check the links below for confirmation or latest values.

https://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/SearchResults.aspx
http://msds.walmartstores.com/

 

[buster]

Based on the VOA's, it looks like the metallic additive treat rate is the same as the other oils, so there are no additional Ca/Mg detergents. It's quite possible these oils do use a higher % of AN's, but without an FTIR it's anyone's guess.

They do mention this on the PDS:
"If your engine has excessive sludge deposits due to less-than-adequate maintenance practices, Mobil 1 High Mileage can help by reducing the sludge left behind in your engine. For severe cases of sludge, short oil change intervals (3000 - 5000 miles) are recommended for the first 2-3 oil changes as reduction of the sludge takes place."

If the detergent levels are the same as other grades, this could imply more AN's which is where the solvency would come from. Being they are expensive though I'm skeptical.

 

[Gokhan]

Including the Mobil 1 Truck & SUV and Mobil 1 Truck & SUV High-Mileage:

Code
Oil PAO GTL Group III POE AN



Mobil 1 0W-16 70-80 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 AFE 0W-30 10-20 20-30 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 AP 0W-20 60-70 yes

Mobil 1 AP 5W-20 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 AP 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 60-70 yes

Mobil 1 EP 10W-30 1-5 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 EP 5W-20 20-30 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 0W-20 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-20 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 ESP Form. 0W-40 5-10 60-70 5-7 no

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 10-20 50-60 5-8 no

Mobil 1 HM 0W-20 10-20 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 1-5 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 HM 10W-40 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 HM 5W-20 1-5 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 HM 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 40-50 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 TP 0W-20 50-60 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 TP 5W-20 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 TP 5W-30 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 T&S 0W-20 30-40 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 T&S 5W-20 20-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 T&S 5W-30 5-10 10-20 yes

Mobil 1 T&S HM 0W-20 30-40 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 T&S HM 5W-20 20-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 T&S HM 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 0W-20 30-40 10-20 30-40 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 10W-30 1-5 5-10 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 5W-20 40-50 1-5 yes

Mobil 1 vanilla 5W-30 20-30 yes

Mobil 1â„¢ ESP x2 0W-20 20-30 50-6 6-8 no

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by buster
Based on the VOA's, it looks like the metallic additive treat rate is the same as the other oils, so there are no additional Ca/Mg detergents. It's quite possible these oils do use a higher % of AN's, but without an FTIR it's anyone's guess.

They do mention this on the PDS:
"If your engine has excessive sludge deposits due to less-than-adequate maintenance practices, Mobil 1 High Mileage can help by reducing the sludge left behind in your engine. For severe cases of sludge, short oil change intervals (3000 - 5000 miles) are recommended for the first 2-3 oil changes as reduction of the sludge takes place."

If the detergent levels are the same as other grades, this could imply more AN's which is where the solvency would come from. Being they are expensive though I'm skeptical.

Interesting quote on the sludge. I do think that's pointing toward more AN base stocks than in their other flavors.

Mobil 1 star rating on the back of their bottles show their high-mileage oils as having more protection at high temperatures than their vanilla oils, which is also pointing to higher-quality base stocks than their vanilla oils, possibly the increased AN content.

 

[Astro_Guy]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Group V POE costs twice as much as Group IV PAO. Group V AN is in the middle between the two, costing roughly 50% more than the PAO.

Of course, Group IV PAO in turn costs a lot more than Group III and GTL.
Yes, but M1 HM oils always cost less at retail than M1 EP and AP oils, which presumably have more PAO. If your theory is correct, then XOM is charging less for a product that costs them more to produce. Having served in a product management role for a number of years, I fully understand that customer perception of value drives retail pricing far more than production cost.

Just to be clear then, are you saying that XOM is selling the HM oil at a lower margin than their premium AP and EP lines? That could actually make a lot of sense if the High Mileage segment is actually the biggest part of the market. Who knows, perhaps it really is the biggest part of the market for those of us who still change our own oil.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Astro_Guy
Just to be clear then, are you saying that XOM is selling the HM oil at a lower margin than their premium AP and EP lines?

If the calculations are correct, the amount of AN varies within viscosity grades, 5W-30 having the largest Synessticâ„¢ 5 AN content, very roughly half of the base oil.

It you look at the PAO content in my table above, it also wildly varies within viscosity grades.

One thing that is for sure is that their production cost greatly varies within viscosity grades and for different flavors. They have a very simple pricing scheme despite that.

For example, the M1 EP 0W-20 is fully PAO and AN but sells for the same price as the mostly Group III M1 EP 10W-30, despite probably costing a lot less than the M1 EP 0W-20 to produce. I should note that the amount of AN is not shown in the MSDS and the Synessticâ„¢ 12 AN is harder to detect through the calculation as its viscosity index is higher than the Synessticâ„¢ 5 AN.

 

[buster]

It is somewhat interesting too that the High Mileage oils are claimed by XOM to handle high temps better, depsite having little to no PAO.