I don't believe Kreen has a high degree of cleaning power under the valve cover compared to other parts of the engine. I've seen that garbage varnish stuff and the only way I was able to get it off was by rubbing it with a rag soaked in pure Kreen, even then, close to nothing came off... I doubt Kreen would clean via flowing over the surface.
Kreen cleaning sneak peek - 1st dose - 800 miles
- Thread starter Artem
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Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'd rock some M1 0w40...
M1 was the cause of my engine looking like this in the first place
Interesting pictures as I can't see any real sludge in the first picture, although there are some deposits around the sides. All this engine probably needs is a shorter OCI, if you look on You tube there are plenty of cases of sluged engines.
Light varnish deposits are normal and trying to clean them off might not be such a good idea, because you might disturb or dissolve the layer of Zinc, Moly or other anti wear additives on the various moving parts and that will be bad news because it takes time for new oil to reform them after the OCI.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'd rock some M1 0w40...
M1 was the cause of my engine looking like this in the first place
Interesting pictures as I can't see any real sludge in the first picture, although there are some deposits around the sides. All this engine probably needs is a shorter OCI, if you look on You tube there are plenty of cases of sluged engines.
Light varnish deposits are normal and trying to clean them off might not be such a good idea, because you might disturb or dissolve the layer of Zinc, Moly or other anti wear additives on the various moving parts and that will be bad news because it takes time for new oil to reform them after the OCI.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Very interesting and telling, in many ways.
Artem - first I'd like to thank you for being fair in your candor and examples. As much as you were disappointed in the ARX, it seems you are being realistic and open in your assessment of the Kreen as well. That, above all, it nice to see. I do realize that it's probably disappointing for you; you really want to find a product to clean the engine.
So, I have some comments that might be of interest to you and the general BITOG membership here.
First, seems that two reasonably respected products didn't clean very well. It is really improbable at this point to know if "more" would be "better" here. If the ARX or Kreen was tried for longer periods, would either help? Kind of hard to know. What is clear is that not all products work well in every application; probably not an unexpected statement.
Also, clearly the engine is simply prone to creating conditions that are harsh on oil. It is speculation at this point as to what lubes may or may not succede in this application, and for what OCI interval. As I've said many times before, any product (regardless of it's origin) can be over or under utilized.
Next, consider the following concept:
Don't think of what can clean up the previous sludge and varnish, but rather what might be able to prevent continuous development! Could either the ARX or the Kreen stop or significantly slow the onset of the phenomenon? That might be the target to aim at. In some manner, I agree that the engine is probably OK at this point, even with the unsightly deposits. So, could continued use of ARX or Kreen delay or stop more from occuring? It's possible. But just as it took many tens of thousands of miles for the sludge to develop, it might also take that kind of time exposure to see if you can significantly retard the problem. And it would take some really detailed photos (you seem to have that covered) for time-lapse comparison and contrast.
OK - this last one is going to be a bit long; please bear with me. I will also mention that it's oddly interesting that it seems deposits can form at some (what I would consider) bizare locations. In your very detailed nice pictures, you've identified a location that seems kind of weird to me. By that I mean this: the location of that heavy deposit is on a "wall" of the head where I would suspect heat is not greatly concentrated. Looking at it closely (unless I'm not seeing it correctly) it seems to me that specific spot is not being subjected to direct heat, and has the advantage of cooling from outside ambient air on the outer wall. And yet, there is heavy deposit forming at that very location. I would fully understand if that deposit were at a local "hot spot" where extreme heat were nearby, with little cooling aid. But that is not what I'm seeing. Kind of odd, is it not? So it makes me wonder if the coking/sludge is forming where the oil cannot get good heat transfer and it cooks a thin layer, but possibly succeedes where the oil layer is thicker. In some way, that makes sense, does it not? On that wall, the oil likely splashes up and drains off quickly, and the residual is quickly cooked? But in areas where the oil lays in a thicker barrier, the sludge is not as prominent? What it seems to indicate is that the heat may not be transfering as well right at that spot, and that spot is indeed "thicker" due to the threaded bolt hole in the wall adjacent to that coked area. So, my question is this: do you see other similar evidnece of thicker spots in the head casting wall where less ambient cooling (thicker material) also sees the coincidence of coking/sludge? Of the areas where coking is present, is there evidence of less ambient cooling and/or vertical surfaces where oil cannot "pool" to cool?
And lastly, it wonder if the onset of the coking is predicated on some self-imposed catalyst? IOW - will the sludge tend to form around itself, once a small portion begins? Does the presence of the sludge/coked material promote the continuance of formation in that localized area simply because of it's mere existence? I don't know that I have an opinion here; just an outward question for you to try and investigate.
Just food for thought.
Again - very nice to see such detailed pictures, and candor in the failure; thank you!
Artem - first I'd like to thank you for being fair in your candor and examples. As much as you were disappointed in the ARX, it seems you are being realistic and open in your assessment of the Kreen as well. That, above all, it nice to see. I do realize that it's probably disappointing for you; you really want to find a product to clean the engine.
So, I have some comments that might be of interest to you and the general BITOG membership here.
First, seems that two reasonably respected products didn't clean very well. It is really improbable at this point to know if "more" would be "better" here. If the ARX or Kreen was tried for longer periods, would either help? Kind of hard to know. What is clear is that not all products work well in every application; probably not an unexpected statement.
Also, clearly the engine is simply prone to creating conditions that are harsh on oil. It is speculation at this point as to what lubes may or may not succede in this application, and for what OCI interval. As I've said many times before, any product (regardless of it's origin) can be over or under utilized.
Next, consider the following concept:
Don't think of what can clean up the previous sludge and varnish, but rather what might be able to prevent continuous development! Could either the ARX or the Kreen stop or significantly slow the onset of the phenomenon? That might be the target to aim at. In some manner, I agree that the engine is probably OK at this point, even with the unsightly deposits. So, could continued use of ARX or Kreen delay or stop more from occuring? It's possible. But just as it took many tens of thousands of miles for the sludge to develop, it might also take that kind of time exposure to see if you can significantly retard the problem. And it would take some really detailed photos (you seem to have that covered) for time-lapse comparison and contrast.
OK - this last one is going to be a bit long; please bear with me. I will also mention that it's oddly interesting that it seems deposits can form at some (what I would consider) bizare locations. In your very detailed nice pictures, you've identified a location that seems kind of weird to me. By that I mean this: the location of that heavy deposit is on a "wall" of the head where I would suspect heat is not greatly concentrated. Looking at it closely (unless I'm not seeing it correctly) it seems to me that specific spot is not being subjected to direct heat, and has the advantage of cooling from outside ambient air on the outer wall. And yet, there is heavy deposit forming at that very location. I would fully understand if that deposit were at a local "hot spot" where extreme heat were nearby, with little cooling aid. But that is not what I'm seeing. Kind of odd, is it not? So it makes me wonder if the coking/sludge is forming where the oil cannot get good heat transfer and it cooks a thin layer, but possibly succeedes where the oil layer is thicker. In some way, that makes sense, does it not? On that wall, the oil likely splashes up and drains off quickly, and the residual is quickly cooked? But in areas where the oil lays in a thicker barrier, the sludge is not as prominent? What it seems to indicate is that the heat may not be transfering as well right at that spot, and that spot is indeed "thicker" due to the threaded bolt hole in the wall adjacent to that coked area. So, my question is this: do you see other similar evidnece of thicker spots in the head casting wall where less ambient cooling (thicker material) also sees the coincidence of coking/sludge? Of the areas where coking is present, is there evidence of less ambient cooling and/or vertical surfaces where oil cannot "pool" to cool?
And lastly, it wonder if the onset of the coking is predicated on some self-imposed catalyst? IOW - will the sludge tend to form around itself, once a small portion begins? Does the presence of the sludge/coked material promote the continuance of formation in that localized area simply because of it's mere existence? I don't know that I have an opinion here; just an outward question for you to try and investigate.
Just food for thought.
Again - very nice to see such detailed pictures, and candor in the failure; thank you!
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I'm just kidding. You said a lot of interesting stuff and i don't even know where to begin so i'll just say this, the only reason this thread exists is because i pulled the valve cover early to sneak a peek. I'll give Kreen plenty of time to do it's thing before i come to a conclusion.
dnewton3
Staff member
Can you take some other pictures with different angle POV so we can see some of the other sludge/coking accumulations? Just wondering if there is any correlation and/or speculative causation for the thin/thick sections ...
Maybe time to do 10 minutes flush
If I could recommend, I will recommend Voltronic.
Personally, I do not find the Kreen cleans that well, but it seems pretty good on soften deposit ( I guess the result of alcohol and abundant ester do it, dont flame me I am not chemist).
My layman hypothesis the alcohol also makes Seafoam works faster than MMO too.
However, if someone can explain better, I am all ears.
If I could recommend, I will recommend Voltronic.
Personally, I do not find the Kreen cleans that well, but it seems pretty good on soften deposit ( I guess the result of alcohol and abundant ester do it, dont flame me I am not chemist).
My layman hypothesis the alcohol also makes Seafoam works faster than MMO too.
However, if someone can explain better, I am all ears.
dnewton - I've also wondered about the patterns of oil splashing and the effect of heat in thin and thick layers. I suppose its also possible that the odd pothole might cause oil to splash in a particular location only once in hundreds of miles.
I also heard that sludge forms when oil hits surfaces with temperature extremes. Apparently the industry standard is for there to be no more than a 15 degree difference between engine block and cylinder heads.
I also heard that sludge forms when oil hits surfaces with temperature extremes. Apparently the industry standard is for there to be no more than a 15 degree difference between engine block and cylinder heads.
Forgive me if this was already answered. If there were UOA's done how were they for this engine, prior to the Rx and Kreen treatments?
From their website:
Quote:
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
I don't see anything that says it will make every square inch of your engine spotless.
They are mostly talking about cleaning up the rings. And I believe that ARX claims the same things.
Quote:
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
I don't see anything that says it will make every square inch of your engine spotless.
They are mostly talking about cleaning up the rings. And I believe that ARX claims the same things.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
From their website:
Quote:
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
I don't see anything that says it will make every square inch of your engine spotless.
They are mostly talking about cleaning up the rings. And I believe that ARX claims the same things.
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
From their website:
Quote:
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
I don't see anything that says it will make every square inch of your engine spotless.
They are mostly talking about cleaning up the rings. And I believe that ARX claims the same things.
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
Originally Posted By: Artem
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
Have you checked the rings? The compression before and after?
Again, I don't see them talking about cleaning meaningless dirt up out of the way of moving parts.
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
Have you checked the rings? The compression before and after?
Again, I don't see them talking about cleaning meaningless dirt up out of the way of moving parts.
Quote:
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Artem
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
Have you checked the rings? The compression before and after?
Again, I don't see them talking about cleaning meaningless dirt up out of the way of moving parts.
No i didn't check the compression before or after. Restoring lost power was / is not my goal here.
Internal Engine Cleaner - Improves Performance
Guaranteed to improve your engines performance. When added to
either the gas or oil of your engine, Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression · Increase Gas Mileage
Reduce Downtime · Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings, valve, and fuel injectors - Kreen gives new life back in any gas or diesel engine.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Artem
Who's talking about making it spotless? I want the cleaner to CLEAN. So far, i'm not seeing any cleaning going on, period!
Have you checked the rings? The compression before and after?
Again, I don't see them talking about cleaning meaningless dirt up out of the way of moving parts.
No i didn't check the compression before or after. Restoring lost power was / is not my goal here.
You stopped your underlines a little too quickly:
Quote:
Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression
Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings
Again, they are talking about moving parts and especially the rings.
Quote:
Kreen dissolves the carbon deposit
buildups and varnishing to Improve Compression
Restore Power By thoroughly cleaning the rings
Again, they are talking about moving parts and especially the rings.
Regular oil will keep moving parts clean. Have you not seen sludged up engines where everything is covered in black sludge, yet the cam lobs are shiny and polished...?
You use a cleaner to clean ALL of the internal parts, not just parts rubbing together. Lol.
You use a cleaner to clean ALL of the internal parts, not just parts rubbing together. Lol.
Originally Posted By: Artem
Regular oil will keep moving parts clean.
Then there should not be coking ring problem ?
Regular oil will keep moving parts clean.
Then there should not be coking ring problem ?
Originally Posted By: Artem
Rings are a different matter. Oil is not flowing directly through the rings. They scrape oil from the cylinder walls. Add combustion deposits to that and you see where the problem comes into play.
Did you ever do a UOA report on this car?
Rings are a different matter. Oil is not flowing directly through the rings. They scrape oil from the cylinder walls. Add combustion deposits to that and you see where the problem comes into play.
Did you ever do a UOA report on this car?
228K with some discoloration isn't bad.
notice how the two "sludge" marks to the right of the biggest one are getting cleaner from picture one to the last one. the cleaners are working it will take some time for the bigger area to clean, probably. yd.
Artem - Here's some unbiased input from experiments with different additives and oils for cleanups. I thought about taking pics under the valve cover and posting. But I would have needed the before pics to make any use of it. I could take pics of the varnished dipstick on the current experiment with the GP 3800 using PP then PU, but have no plans to pull the covers on that engine. Not that easy.
So, its opinion below, take it for what its worth. Unscientific. Using the eyeballs and some visible deposits like varnished dipsticks, oil filler views, blotter tests, occasional peeks under the valve covers.
Kreen - Seems to perform better or worse depending on temperature. Use it in hot weather conditions, lot of highway racking up miles fast, Kreen vaporizes. I suspect this because of a rapid drop in the oil level over a few hundred miles. Results were minimal. Used in cooler around town conditions, rapid drop of oil level did not happen. Kreen seemed to have a better effect lasting longer at full strength. Indicated by the color of the oil on the dipstick. Unusually dark. Not much change in the color of the oil when Kreen vaporized/flashed.
Ok for sludge, but a fast flush does not have time to dissolve tougher substances like varnish and hardened carbon. Lubegard engine flush performed well for sludge, but left the varnish behind. Varnish removal can't start until the sludge covering it is gone.
Using straight oil - M1 average. PP average. T6 HDEO over-rated, not the magic cleaner people claim it is. Average. Made the engine really smooth and quiet though! maybe the quietest oil I've ever used. M1 High Mileage BOOM. Thats the one. Varnish on dipstick gone in a few thousand. Cleaned what M1 and PP could not (over the course of a 7k OCI). Filthy black oil for several OCIs. PU is next up. The 08 GP has a varnished dipstick, varnish under the filler. PP cleaned a little, but its still there. We will see if PU has high levels of cleaners or not. So for me, M1 HM is the bar for cleaning with just oil. If PU can match it, will know in the spring.
So, its opinion below, take it for what its worth. Unscientific. Using the eyeballs and some visible deposits like varnished dipsticks, oil filler views, blotter tests, occasional peeks under the valve covers.
Kreen - Seems to perform better or worse depending on temperature. Use it in hot weather conditions, lot of highway racking up miles fast, Kreen vaporizes. I suspect this because of a rapid drop in the oil level over a few hundred miles. Results were minimal. Used in cooler around town conditions, rapid drop of oil level did not happen. Kreen seemed to have a better effect lasting longer at full strength. Indicated by the color of the oil on the dipstick. Unusually dark. Not much change in the color of the oil when Kreen vaporized/flashed.
Ok for sludge, but a fast flush does not have time to dissolve tougher substances like varnish and hardened carbon. Lubegard engine flush performed well for sludge, but left the varnish behind. Varnish removal can't start until the sludge covering it is gone.
Using straight oil - M1 average. PP average. T6 HDEO over-rated, not the magic cleaner people claim it is. Average. Made the engine really smooth and quiet though! maybe the quietest oil I've ever used. M1 High Mileage BOOM. Thats the one. Varnish on dipstick gone in a few thousand. Cleaned what M1 and PP could not (over the course of a 7k OCI). Filthy black oil for several OCIs. PU is next up. The 08 GP has a varnished dipstick, varnish under the filler. PP cleaned a little, but its still there. We will see if PU has high levels of cleaners or not. So for me, M1 HM is the bar for cleaning with just oil. If PU can match it, will know in the spring.
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