Is it true or not...M1 changed it's formula

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Qwiky
Cost wise you aint going to match T6.

Not true, at least not in the US. T6 costs around $5/qt ($20/gal). M1 is frequently on sale for $5/qt as well.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Qwiky
Cost wise you aint going to match T6.

Not true, at least not in the US. T6 costs around $5/qt ($20/gal). M1 is frequently on sale for $5/qt as well.


The T6 gallon sells for less than the M1 "5Quart"...easy to forget that the size of those jugs are not same-same!

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Quote:
M1 changed and is no longer true synthetic.
It doesn't matter. What does matter is the protection it gives the engine, and that remains excellent.


I tred the old bottle and the new bottle...

It MATTERS. ALOT.

-20% durability is and paying the same price?

Im out.

 

[daz]

Originally Posted By: vo_marz
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Quote:
M1 changed and is no longer true synthetic.
It doesn't matter. What does matter is the protection it gives the engine, and that remains excellent.


I tred the old bottle and the new bottle...

It MATTERS. ALOT.

-20% durability is and paying the same price?

Im out.


Are you saying that they DID indeed change it and that it is now less protective? My concern with it was that if they changed from true synthetic to a blend or whatever that it won't last as long. I read a article posted in another thread and it said that non full and true synthetics will lose thier viscosity in as little as 2k. That worries me about M1. Then again, i now see motul 7100 scored very low in the amsoil white paper, so now i'm confused as to whether i should stay with motul or start using M1 again or something else altogether. M1 scored very well, but if thats the case thats great but for how long? It may be better than motul for 2k then be about as useful as vegetable oil.

when you say "new bottle", does it state anything differently?

 

[Cujet]

Of course you realize that Amzoil and Redline get base stocks from Mobil, don't you?

 

[daz]

No i didn't, but that means nothing if the base stock they get from them is a different one than M! uses in thier own motorcycle oil. Mobil likely makes many different base stocks and uses them or sells them according to what prices are paid. You can buy a PRS guitar for $5000 or buy one that looks just like it, same brand, but made in china or some such place for about $500. The fact they look the same means nothing, as they are not the same at all. Now in the case of M1, the buyer may spec a top of the line synth base and Mobil will sell it to them, but that doesn't mean mobil will use that same base in thier bike oil. If they must compete with others like castrol who can thier dino oil synthetic, how do they compete if they use more expensive to produce true synth base?

i don't know oil, but i do understand how products are marketed and the fact (assuming it is) that mobil supplies others with thier base stocks in and of itself means nothing. the truth is in the details.

 

[dwendt44]

Hard to believe that Mobil would 'fiddle' with their most famous and best selling product line much.
Aside from that refinery trouble a few years ago, when Mobil started using SOME group III in their synthetic lines, I'm sure M-1 in all its flavors are mostly group IV. The actual percentage may vary slightly due to add packages (EP has a bit less Gr IV), but you are still getting what you pay for.

My 3¢

 

[daz]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Hard to believe that Mobil would 'fiddle' with their most famous and best selling product line much.


Why not? do you think it will cause them to lose sales? Like right here and now, no one really knows if they did so few will stop using it w/o knowing for sure. So i offer this possible scenario which makes total sense to me at least. We know true synth is more expensive to make. This is why mobil took castrol to court in an attempt to make them cease using the word synthetic for oils they were selling which weren't. that we know for a fact. we also know mobil failed and now anyone can use the word synthetic as long as theres a package involved.

that said, if you were mobil producing a true synthetic that costs much more to make than castrol's false synthetic, how do you now compete with them? The old saying comes to mind...."if you can't beat em, join em". Thats why i believe they may have changed it.

On the other hand what have they got to lose? They can still call it synthetic like everyone else, and the profits they now see by selling an oil thats much cheaper to produce yet selling it for the same amount they always have would mean huge profits that will not even be close to the tiny amount they lose because maybe .02% of thier customers heard about the change in formula and believed it enough to stop using it. lets say for the sake of argument it's 25% cheaper to produce. Lets say they lose 5% of thier profits due to customers who left. Thats a 20% increase. i won't speculate what 20% of thier annual sale in motorcycle oil would be, but i'm sure there are countries you could purchase with that kinda cash.

anyways, all speculation in both the thought and the numbers, but the point is theres no need to ask why they would. There are always reasons when it comes to marketing. many companies compromise thier product's quality for profits. It happens all the time and gets worse and worse every year.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: daz
Originally Posted By: vo_marz
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Quote:
M1 changed and is no longer true synthetic.
It doesn't matter. What does matter is the protection it gives the engine, and that remains excellent.


I tred the old bottle and the new bottle...

It MATTERS. ALOT.

-20% durability is and paying the same price?

Im out.


Are you saying that they DID indeed change it and that it is now less protective? My concern with it was that if they changed from true synthetic to a blend or whatever that it won't last as long. I read a article posted in another thread and it said that non full and true synthetics will lose thier viscosity in as little as 2k. That worries me about M1. Then again, i now see motul 7100 scored very low in the amsoil white paper, so now i'm confused as to whether i should stay with motul or start using M1 again or something else altogether. M1 scored very well, but if thats the case thats great but for how long? It may be better than motul for 2k then be about as useful as vegetable oil.

when you say "new bottle", does it state anything differently?


the old packaging was dull greyish (api SL on the back)

the new one is silvberish greyish (api SM on the back)

the bottle that is...

my friend's bike had the same problem when he switched over to the new bottles too, so i dont think its just me ...

 

[daz]

Ok, i just got back from pep boys and they had BOTh bottles. The difference i saw was the new one doesn't not say "JASO MA". Is that what you mean? And if so, what does it designate? Something that causes the 20% less durability you mentioned? I really want to know whats going on. I have 2 bottles at home and they had 2 of the old bottles so i grabbed them. But now i'm unsure of whether next change i will use it again. Looks like this change must be more recent than i thought given that they had some of each there.

Oh, and i just noticed neither says API SM or API SL, they both say API SG. This is the V-twin 20w50 stuff.

 

[daz]

Well, i figured that while i might be foolish trusting anything they tell me, i'd call mobil and see what they say. So i did and they told me the 20w50 Vtwin formula has never changed. I asked is the base stock was still fully synthetic because i had read online in a number of places that it wasn't any longer. he said it is fully synthetic. So while i cannot know if he was telling me what i wanted to hear, basically "reading from a script" or whether he told me the truth. But since i can never verify ANY source i will take that as a yes and use M1 Vtwin for not on unless anyone can convince me that it's no longer a good oil.

 

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Of course you realize that Amzoil and Redline get base stocks from Mobil, don't you?


Really??? I thought Amsoil invented synthetics. "First in Synthetics."

Too funny. May scamsoil continue in infamy.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: OnTheFence
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Of course you realize that Amzoil and Redline get base stocks from Mobil, don't you?


Really??? I thought Amsoil invented synthetics. "First in Synthetics."

Too funny. May xxamsoil continue in infamy.


Wow - name calling. So childish. Amsoil never claimed to invent all synthetic lubricants. Amsoil is the first in many categories, first API synthetic, first synthetic ATF, etc.

Now as for the point about Amsoil and Redline buying SOME PAO's from Exxon Mobil, what is the big deal about that? Seriously - please can someone tell me? Amsoil will buy from who has the correct commodity at the correct high quality level at the correct price. I'm not sure what Cujet's point is exactly, but he can't even spell Amsoil correctly.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: daz
Ok, i just got back from pep boys and they had BOTh bottles. The difference i saw was the new one doesn't not say "JASO MA". Is that what you mean? And if so, what does it designate? Something that causes the 20% less durability you mentioned? I really want to know whats going on. I have 2 bottles at home and they had 2 of the old bottles so i grabbed them. But now i'm unsure of whether next change i will use it again. Looks like this change must be more recent than i thought given that they had some of each there.

Oh, and i just noticed neither says API SM or API SL, they both say API SG. This is the V-twin 20w50 stuff.


The viscosity i tested was 10W40 aka mobil 1 racing 4t

not the v twin stuff

 

[Steve S]

Amszoil was the original spelling. AMatuZio OIL = Amzoil

 

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

Wow - name calling. So childish. Amsoil never claimed to invent all synthetic lubricants. Amsoil is the first in many categories, first API synthetic, first synthetic ATF, etc.



Oh stop it. There is no name calling going on. It's only a little bottle of oil. We don't need to cry oilism.

 

[daz]

By the way, they have changed the bottle several times so i don't think that denotes a formula change. Like i said i had 2 bottles at home so i bought 2 more yesterday to do a M1 oil change. Well, the old bottles are about maybe 3-4 years old and they are different than either of the 2 bottles i saw in the store. Both the old bottles and the ones i bought yesterday which are the ones they have just discontinues i guess have the same ratings. But the other bottle at the store which i assume is the newest doesn't have the JMSO (or is it JSMO...whatever) rating. Is that the designation for safe with wet clutches, or if not what? According to the M1 rep i talked to yesterday it hasn't changes, so i assume that newest bottle does have that rating but somehow i missed it.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: daz
By the way, they have changed the bottle several times so i don't think that denotes a formula change. Like i said i had 2 bottles at home so i bought 2 more yesterday to do a M1 oil change. Well, the old bottles are about maybe 3-4 years old and they are different than either of the 2 bottles i saw in the store. Both the old bottles and the ones i bought yesterday which are the ones they have just discontinues i guess have the same ratings. But the other bottle at the store which i assume is the newest doesn't have the JMSO (or is it JSMO...whatever) rating. Is that the designation for safe with wet clutches, or if not what? According to the M1 rep i talked to yesterday it hasn't changes, so i assume that newest bottle does have that rating but somehow i missed it.


the only way is to do a VOA VS

 

[mr_diy]

After M1 lost the lawsuit with Castrol, they moved to their Tri-Syn, first step away from 100% syn. Lately they dropped the 15k OCI of std M1. Now a 5k OCI M1. Clearly they are changing their product to compete cost wise with the other cheaper syn's on store shelves. Due to higher API standards today there is little difference between syn branded and not b(probably all going grp III). Certainly not worth 2x or more price difference, except M1 EP if you double your OCI.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
After M1 lost the lawsuit with Castrol, they moved to their Tri-Syn, first step away from 100% syn. Lately they dropped the 15k OCI of std M1. Now a 5k OCI M1.

Lots of misinformation in this post.

1. It was not a lawsuit but a decision of some advertizing board.

2. There is no such thing as 100% syn. There never was. It is not possible to introduce add pack without some amount of mineral base.

3. Where does it say on Mobil's website that M1 is only good for 5K miles? Last time I checked it said this:

Quote:
Oil Change Intervals: Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long 15,000 miles on some new cars. We recommend that you follow the oil and filter change frequencies shown in your owner's manual.

So, if your manual says 15K is OK, then that's what you can safely run.


But is it true that the formula has changed over the years? Sure. All manufacturers change their formulas all the time to take advantage of the latest technology/R&D and to stay competitive while trying to meet the latest specs. Does that make M1 any worse? I don't think so.