Defensive Rifle Zero Distance, Dont think that military zero is correct for you!

[Elkins45]

So what would be the alternative here? Not zeroing in your rifle? I fail to see the problem with doing this. If anything not properly sighting in your weapon and knowing your zero/effective range would be the unpractical choice.

How much of a difference does a 200 yard vs. 300 yard zero make in the point of impact of a round fired down the longest hallway in your house? Is it even an inch?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there’s essentially never a justifiable outdoor defensive rifle shot for civilians. The OP titled the thread “defensive rifle” but if you’re shooting someone defensively it will undoubtedly be indoors. Shoot a guy 200 yards away and you’re going to prison.

If it’s truly a defensive rifle you should sight it in for the longest unobstructed distance in your house.

 

[burbguy82]

So what would be the alternative here? Not zeroing in your rifle? I fail to see the problem with doing this. If anything not properly sighting in your weapon and knowing your zero/effective range would be the unpractical choice.

Right. Most do not know the above info, and think "that if the army does it, then i should to"

 

[I<3oil]

I joined in 2002 Army Infantry and ever since, it's been 25m zero.

I meant to add/edit in the 25/300 BZO.

 

[BobsArmory]

Nice post! The range I shoot at is 100 yards on the lower field and every rifle I own is zeroed a 100. Amusingly, my .338LM holds zero out to at least 300 yards with the 100 yard zero, no problem hitting centre of a 4x4" target at that distance with no hold-over.

.338LM I didn't know Liqui Moly made rifles! I wonder if @TiGeo knows about this.

 

[burbguy82]

is that there’s essentially never a justifiable outdoor defensive rifle shot for civilians

Not typically for civilians.....when in regards to another human....but could be.

What about a coyote attacking your animals, where is the "belt buckle" hold of a coyote with your little lap dog is fighting for its life. You need accurate and intuitive aiming point. 6'' under the coyote at 100 yards would not be a great aiming point.

If it’s truly a defensive rifle you should sight it in for the longest unobstructed distance in your house.

Sure, and for some application that would be fine. But not for general purpose, not if you only have one.....maybe I should have made that clear in the first post.

I call it defensive rifle zero, maybe I should have clarified a bit, and call ed in a general purpose rifle as i see the confusion.

 

[Astro14]

To your point, @burbguy82 - zero the rifle for its intended use and anticipated range. 100 yard coyote rifle? Yep, 100 yards, knowing that a short range shot is going to hit a bit lower than POA, and that your 200 yards hit will be off POA as well.

My purely defensive rifle is zeroed at 25 as I mentioned. Dot on target at any reasonable range in defensive use and it will hit within acceptable variation.

My carbine for competition, and general purpose, is an AR-15 with a Leupold Patrol Rifle scope. I zeroed it at 50. Haven’t had a chance to get it to a longer range for true 200 zero, but at 50/200, I know the holdover and the drop and the optic itself is predicated on a 200 yard zero, with marks for 300, 400, and 500 yards based on 5.56mm.

Actually, I think it goes to 800, but let’s be realistic…

So, since the optic is built, and the reticle marked, on a 200 yard zero, that’s the zero that makes sense on it. I would be OK leaving that set up as is, and using it in your coyote scenario because I know what the holdovers (hold under?) are at every range because I know the reticle and the rifle.

I have an AR with irons on the carry handle. Actually zeroed that one at 200 one day. It’s set with a 50/200 and again, for a 5.56mm, I know what it’s going to do at 25, and 100.

 

[spasm3]

How much of a difference does a 200 yard vs. 300 yard zero make in the point of impact of a round fired down the longest hallway in your house? Is it even an inch?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there’s essentially never a justifiable outdoor defensive rifle shot for civilians. The OP titled the thread “defensive rifle” but if you’re shooting someone defensively it will undoubtedly be indoors. Shoot a guy 200 yards away and you’re going to prison.

If it’s truly a defensive rifle you should sight it in for the longest unobstructed distance in your house.

@Elkins45
Which rifle do you have, and what distance did you sight it in? Did you sight it in at 20 feet, meaning your hallway distance ? 20yards ? 50 yards ?

 

[ATex7239]

How much of a difference does a 200 yard vs. 300 yard zero make in the point of impact of a round fired down the longest hallway in your house? Is it even an inch?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there’s essentially never a justifiable outdoor defensive rifle shot for civilians. The OP titled the thread “defensive rifle” but if you’re shooting someone defensively it will undoubtedly be indoors. Shoot a guy 200 yards away and you’re going to prison.

If it’s truly a defensive rifle you should sight it in for the longest unobstructed distance in your house.

The “don’t zero/practice beyond X distance because if you shoot a bad guy farther away than that you’ll go to prison” argument assumes nothing bad happens after a certain distance. If a criminal is 25 yards or more away unarmed and isn’t hurting anyone it would be a bad shoot. However if the BG has a weapon/is hurting someone you don’t believe there any possible scenario where its justifiable to shoot at further ranges? Hypothetical: I live less than 1/2 mile from a school and fire station, if I saw someone with a rifle in the empty field about 50 yards behind my house taking pop shots at either location, you don’t think I’d be justified in shooting?

 

[ATex7239]

Right. Most do not know the above info, and think "that if the army does it, then i should to"

Zeroing and know the various effective ranges is smart and practical IMO. Which range you zero for is just personal preference.

 

[ATex7239]

To your point, @burbguy82 - zero the rifle for its intended use and anticipated range. 100 yard coyote rifle? Yep, 100 yards, knowing that a short range shot is going to hit a bit lower than POA, and that your 200 yards hit will be off POA as well.

My purely defensive rifle is zeroed at 25 as I mentioned. Dot on target at any reasonable range in defensive use and it will hit within acceptable variation.

My carbine for competition, and general purpose, is an AR-15 with a Leupold Patrol Rifle scope. I zeroed it at 50. Haven’t had a chance to get it to a longer range for true 200 zero, but at 50/200, I know the holdover and the drop and the optic itself is predicated on a 200 yard zero, with marks for 300, 400, and 500 yards based on 5.56mm.

Actually, I think it goes to 800, but let’s be realistic…

So, since the optic is built, and the reticle marked, on a 200 yard zero, that’s the zero that makes sense on it. I would be OK leaving that set up as is, and using it in your coyote scenario because I know what the holdovers (hold under?) are at every range because I know the reticle and the rifle.

I have an AR with irons on the carry handle. Actually zeroed that one at 200 one day. It’s set with a 50/200 and again, for a 5.56mm, I know what it’s going to do at 25, and 100.

I have friend who uses his AR for hunting and defensive use. I don’t recall the zero but I know he has dropped a deer at 75/100 yards with cause I’ve seen him do it. He doesn’t have the money for multiple rifles for different purposes, as a single income household, so he uses the one AR for everything. Not concealed carry though obviously.

 

[Astro14]

I have friend who uses his AR for hunting and defensive use. I don’t recall the zero but I know he has dropped a deer at 75/100 yards with cause I’ve seen him do it. He doesn’t have the money for multiple rifles for different purposes, as a single income household, so he uses the one AR for everything. Not concealed carry though obviously.

In that sense, I am fortunate to have a variety of tools for a variety of purposes, so I can optimize each one for that purpose.

If I only had one rifle, I would lean towards the carbine I described - an AR-15 in 5.56mm with the Leupold optic. Good for a variety of uses.

The carbine in 7.62 (with a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8) that is also in my safe might be better for some purposes like hunting, but it’s a lot more expensive on range day, and it’s overkill for defensive use.

A Garand would make a great deer rifle (if you’re good with irons, and the sight on that is great, zeroed at 100 with adjustable elevations and range marks on the sight) but it’s a lot of rifle for defensive use and really expensive on range day.

Interesting that the military once zeroed at 100 yards and gave soldiers a dial to adjust for range…

 

[RDY4WAR]

I also fail to see the point of this for a defensive rifle. If you're shooting someone past 100 yards, you're going to have a really hard time claiming self-defense. (outside of a rare sniper situation) I was in the Army from 2006-2011. We always zero'd at 25m.

My civilian sharpshooting experience has been quite different from the Army. I'm a big fan of long range precision shooting. I have scope settings for 100-500 yards, established with gongs set up at 100 yard intervals, for each of my rifles except the little 22. On our family land where we hunt, I have stakes with orange ribbons at each 100 yard interval for easy scope adjustment.

The longest kill shot I've taken was a 7 point buck with a 30-06 at 378 yards with a 12 ft drop in elevation. I adjusted the scope to my 400 yard setting, aimed at the bottom of his shoulder, and dropped him where he stood. That round entered dead center, tumbled through both lungs, and exited at an angle from the line of entry, behind his other shoulder.

 

[ATex7239]

In that sense, I am fortunate to have a variety of tools for a variety of purposes, so I can optimize each one for that purpose.

If I only had one rifle, I would lean towards the carbine I described - an AR-15 in 5.56mm with the Leupold optic. Good for a variety of uses.

The carbine in 7.62 (with a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8) that is also in my safe might be better for some purposes like hunting, but it’s a lot more expensive on range day, and it’s overkill for defensive use.

A Garand would make a great deer rifle (if you’re good with irons, and the sight on that is great, zeroed at 100 with adjustable elevations and range marks on the sight) but it’s a lot of rifle for defensive use and really expensive on range day.

Interesting that the military once zeroed at 100 yards and gave soldiers a dial to adjust for range…

I’m fortunate enough to have multiple as well.

You basically described his catch all rifle - S&W AR15 with Vortex optic running 5.56/55gr hollow points. It services many purpose well and very cost effectively.

 

[spasm3]

How much of a difference does a 200 yard vs. 300 yard zero make in the point of impact of a round fired down the longest hallway in your house? Is it even an inch?

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there’s essentially never a justifiable outdoor defensive rifle shot for civilians. The OP titled the thread “defensive rifle” but if you’re shooting someone defensively it will undoubtedly be indoors. Shoot a guy 200 yards away and you’re going to prison.

If it’s truly a defensive rifle you should sight it in for the longest unobstructed distance in your house.

I also fail to see the point of this for a defensive rifle. If you're shooting someone past 100 yards, you're going to have a really hard time claiming self-defense. (outside of a rare sniper situation) I was in the Army from 2006-2011. We always zero'd at 25m.

My civilian sharpshooting experience has been quite different from the Army. I'm a big fan of long range precision shooting. I have scope settings for 100-500 yards, established with gongs set up at 100 yard intervals, for each of my rifles except the little 22. On our family land where we hunt, I have stakes with orange ribbons at each 100 yard interval for easy scope adjustment.

The longest kill shot I've taken was a 7 point buck with a 30-06 at 378 yards with a 12 ft drop in elevation. I adjusted the scope to my 400 yard setting, aimed at the bottom of his shoulder, and dropped him where he stood. That round entered dead center, tumbled through both lungs, and exited at an angle from the line of entry, behind his other shoulder.

So i think the issue is, the word defensive.

I agree with most of what you both said, however keep in mind some people own rifles for different reasons.

Some hunt. Some just like to target shoot. Some just collect firearms.

But there are also preppers. I'm not in that category, but non the less it exists. So some have rifles for TEOTWAWKI. So in that situation, they envision needing to have that defensive ability/range.

 

[Astro14]

I also fail to see the point of this for a defensive rifle. If you're shooting someone past 100 yards, you're going to have a really hard time claiming self-defense. (outside of a rare sniper situation) I was in the Army from 2006-2011. We always zero'd at 25m.

My civilian sharpshooting experience has been quite different from the Army. I'm a big fan of long range precision shooting. I have scope settings for 100-500 yards, established with gongs set up at 100 yard intervals, for each of my rifles except the little 22. On our family land where we hunt, I have stakes with orange ribbons at each 100 yard interval for easy scope adjustment.

The longest kill shot I've taken was a 7 point buck with a 30-06 at 378 yards with a 12 ft drop in elevation. I adjusted the scope to my 400 yard setting, aimed at the bottom of his shoulder, and dropped him where he stood. That round entered dead center, tumbled through both lungs, and exited at an angle from the line of entry, behind his other shoulder.

I just don’t get the 25/300 zero. I suppose it falls into the “There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way” when the USMC, Navy, and SOF zero at 50/200.

Look, if you’re shooting past 200, you have time to figure hold over, but if you have a 25/300 yard zero and are engaging at 100, you are a lot farther off from POA than the 50/200 solution.

So, for bad breath distance? Sure - 25 yard zero, who cares, it’s close enough. But for medium range? For variety of ranges? I think there are better choices…

 

[burbguy82]

I also fail to see the point of this for a defensive rifle.

I was in the Army from 2006-2011. We always zero'd at 25m.

My civilian sharpshooting experience has been quite different from the Army.

Ok, then with these above statements, why would you disagree that the 100 yard zero, is not superior to the 25-300? If you civilian shooting experience has been different, then why not change zero?

 

[burbguy82]

I just don’t get the 25/300 zero. I suppose it falls into the “There is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way” when the USMC, Navy, and SOF zero at 50/200.

Look, if you’re shooting past 200, you have time to figure hold over, but if you have a 25/300 yard zero and are engaging at 100, you are a lot farther off from POA than the 50/200 solution.

So, for bad breath distance? Sure - 25 yard zero, who cares, it’s close enough. But for medium range? For variety of ranges? I think there are better choices…

I did fail to mention that the 25-300 was developed with m193 ammo, and a 20 inch barrel as the AR was originally resigned. Much faster, much less drop. Today, the predominate barrel length is 16 or less, which dramatically changes the velocity and therefore the trajectory.

I recently helped a friend out with his new rifle..........he came out with all this "info" he got about a 25 yard zero, and how that was the best for the gun and his ammo and blah blah blah. So I indulged him, we zeroed his gun at 25 as per the M16 BRM guidelines......he was happy or so he thought. I then took him to the 100 gong, a 10" gong. He took aim, and missed. I told him aim right below the bottom edge......he did and hit the target, near the top.

I adjusted the sights for 100.

went back to 50, near dead on, at 75, near dead on, at 10 ft, near dead on, at 200 he was 3'' low.

This was really the purpose of this thread.....had the shot he made after zeroing really counted for something.......well you get the point. Really for the uniformed than anything else.

There is a difference in book, and real world, and quoting a manual, is not real world, real application.

 

[Elkins45]

@Elkins45
Which rifle do you have, and what distance did you sight it in? Did you sight it in at 20 feet, meaning your hallway distance ? 20yards ? 50 yards ?

I have a bunch of different rifles. Most are sighted at 100 yards except for my 257 Weatherby which is sighted for 300.

I don’t consider any of my rifles (even the ARs) as defensive weapons. I have a shotgun for that and it’s sighted for 25 yards.

 

[Elkins45]

The “don’t zero/practice beyond X distance because if you shoot a bad guy farther away than that you’ll go to prison” argument assumes nothing bad happens after a certain distance. If a criminal is 25 yards or more away unarmed and isn’t hurting anyone it would be a bad shoot. However if the BG has a weapon/is hurting someone you don’t believe there any possible scenario where its justifiable to shoot at further ranges? Hypothetical: I live less than 1/2 mile from a school and fire station, if I saw someone with a rifle in the empty field about 50 yards behind my house taking pop shots at either location, you don’t think I’d be justified in shooting?

So does that mean a rifle zeroed at 100 yards would be unusable in that situation? What about 25 yards?

Anyone can invent some scenarios where they MIGHT need to make a long distance shot, but real world data tells us it’s mostly just a fantasy. And in the rare occasion it does, any reasonable sight setting will work assuming a typical rifle and cartridge.

OP has since clarified his meaning of “defensive” so the point has been pretty well covered at this point.

 

[ATex7239]

So does that mean a rifle zeroed at 100 yards would be unusable in that situation? What about 25 yards?

Anyone can invent some scenarios where they MIGHT need to make a long distance shot, but real world data tells us it’s mostly just a fantasy. And in the rare occasion it does, any reasonable sight setting will work assuming a typical rifle and cartridge.

I never said that. You’re the one applying the constraints. Saying the only viable range is hallway distance otherwise it’s off to prison with you. False dichotomy.