Obsolete means it is not available anymore or actively produced. Since that's not the case, 10w30 is not considered obsolete and will not be until all oil manufacturers seize its production.
Is 10W-30 really obsolete?
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Obsolete means it is not available anymore or actively produced. Since that's not the case, 10w30 is not considered obsolete and will not be until all oil manufacturers seize its production.
That's one definition, although in this age how is oil meeting that definition when there will be boutique makers who can produce just about anything in small quantities. I can still find heavy duty 30 weight with an API donut. I think it is obsolete - probably used by people with classic cars and also in lawnmowers. Maybe also as a general lubricating oil where it clings better.
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
Obsolete means it is not available anymore or actively produced. Since that's not the case, 10w30 is not considered obsolete and will not be until all oil manufacturers seize its production.
That's one definition, although in this age how is oil meeting that definition when there will be boutique makers who can produce just about anything in small quantities. I can still find heavy duty 30 weight with an API donut. I think it is obsolete - probably used by people with classic cars and also in lawnmowers. Maybe also as a general lubricating oil where it clings better.
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Published by Chevron Oronite 9/10/12. 10W-30 still has a long long way to go.
Yeah 10W-30 will no doubt be obsolete by 2015, as it will only be selling 200K tons MORE than 5W-20..
Looks looks as if 10W-40 should be the one to be worried over...
Published by Chevron Oronite 9/10/12. 10W-30 still has a long long way to go.
Yeah 10W-30 will no doubt be obsolete by 2015, as it will only be selling 200K tons MORE than 5W-20..
Looks looks as if 10W-40 should be the one to be worried over...
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
By that definition, which IMO is totally absurd, 5w30 and 5w20 oils are also obsolete since 0w30 and 0w20 oils will meet or exceed the requirements of 5w oils.
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
By that definition, which IMO is totally absurd, 5w30 and 5w20 oils are also obsolete since 0w30 and 0w20 oils will meet or exceed the requirements of 5w oils.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
By that definition, which IMO is totally absurd, 5w30 and 5w20 oils are also obsolete since 0w30 and 0w20 oils will meet or exceed the requirements of 5w oils.
How is it absurd? Nearly all the dictionary definitions I found are that "obsolete" means something that has been replaced by something newer or is effectively replaced by something more current (no longer in "general use"). The best synonym I could find was "outdated". The context of this thread certainly is using that meaning.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsolete
10W-30 is certainly out of date because very few manufacturers even specify it as an alternate motor oil weight. Most importantly, 5W-30 and 5W-20 are available at basic price points, while 0W-30 or 0W-20 are nearly always sold at a premium price. People aren't going to start using 0W-20 in place of 5W-20 in large numbers unless the price goes down.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
The definition generally used here is "out of date", and by any standard 10W-30 certainly is. A modern 5W-30 will easily meet the requirements (usually volatility and shear stability) for why 10W-30 was specified, and someone with a vehicle out of warranty shouldn't worry about adequate protection.
By that definition, which IMO is totally absurd, 5w30 and 5w20 oils are also obsolete since 0w30 and 0w20 oils will meet or exceed the requirements of 5w oils.
How is it absurd? Nearly all the dictionary definitions I found are that "obsolete" means something that has been replaced by something newer or is effectively replaced by something more current (no longer in "general use"). The best synonym I could find was "outdated". The context of this thread certainly is using that meaning.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsolete
10W-30 is certainly out of date because very few manufacturers even specify it as an alternate motor oil weight. Most importantly, 5W-30 and 5W-20 are available at basic price points, while 0W-30 or 0W-20 are nearly always sold at a premium price. People aren't going to start using 0W-20 in place of 5W-20 in large numbers unless the price goes down.
Such a warning was common years ago, if only deduced from the temperature charts. The 5w-30 of today is greatly improved or what it was 20 years ago.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
Originally Posted By: jrustles
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
Did that once. I went on a long road trip with my folks a few years back in their Camry. I usually changed the oil myself, which was easy although that oil filter locations was a pain because of where the waste oil drained. I did most of the oil changes myself on that car as a favor, and usually with 5W-30. However, for this change I used some 10W-30 that I usually reserved for their Buick with a 3800 Series II engine. I figured we'd either be driving hundreds of miles at a time, or going from place to place during the day for 50-100 miles a day with only warm starts. I think we racked up about 4000 miles on that trip. It must have also been pretty easy on the oil, although I went with the 10W-30 because I knew it would be racking up relatively few cold starts for the distance driven.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
Did that once. I went on a long road trip with my folks a few years back in their Camry. I usually changed the oil myself, which was easy although that oil filter locations was a pain because of where the waste oil drained. I did most of the oil changes myself on that car as a favor, and usually with 5W-30. However, for this change I used some 10W-30 that I usually reserved for their Buick with a 3800 Series II engine. I figured we'd either be driving hundreds of miles at a time, or going from place to place during the day for 50-100 miles a day with only warm starts. I think we racked up about 4000 miles on that trip. It must have also been pretty easy on the oil, although I went with the 10W-30 because I knew it would be racking up relatively few cold starts for the distance driven.
Originally Posted By: circuitsmith
Originally Posted By: jrustles
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
Just because a product is obsolete doesn't mean it won't work or work well such as in the above applications.
One good thing about the 10W-30 grade is that it is almost always on sale if not an outright clearance item. A friend picked up some M1 HM 10W-30 on a clearout sale at Cdn Tire (80% off) to use in an old oil burning/leaking beater of his.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
If I were taking a cross country trip or driving hundreds of KM each day, I would probably intentionally select 10w30, synthetic or mineral, for a 5w30 spec'd car.
That's just what I did this summer for a 5300 mile road trip.
Wash. DC to Edmonton Canada and back in a loop.
Just because a product is obsolete doesn't mean it won't work or work well such as in the above applications.
One good thing about the 10W-30 grade is that it is almost always on sale if not an outright clearance item. A friend picked up some M1 HM 10W-30 on a clearout sale at Cdn Tire (80% off) to use in an old oil burning/leaking beater of his.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Such a warning was common years ago, if only deduced from the temperature charts. The 5w-30 of today is greatly improved or what it was 20 years ago.
I'm not even sure what some of those old specs for 5W-30 were supposed to achieve. I understood that most 5W-30 oils would shear down to something in the 5W-20 range quickly, and that for the CAFE tests they'd probably make sure to pick an oil that met those requirements. But then you could probably find a more shear stable 5W-30 that doesn't thin out as much, and doesn't achieve the intended effect. And 10W-30s obviously were more shear stable than 5W-30s from the same maker, so that would affect fuel economy.
I'm wondering if the move to 5W-20 oils was partially because the latest oils didn't shear down as much for better fuel economy. A lot of fluids were chosen because of the reality of that particular era. 5W-30s obviously thinned out quickly when 10W-30s didn't. Honda used to specify motor oils as a manual transmission fluid because the majority of motor oils had a high ZDDP content. An oil didn't have to though to meet API SG, and I'm wondering if some boutique oils with unique additive packages might have performed poorly in those applications. An API SN motor oil should be better than an API SG motor oil from the early 90s for most engines, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate for a manual transmission. I hear Honda now recommends their MTL fluid for any vehicle that used to spec 10W-30 or 10W-40 motor oil as the gearbox lube.
Such a warning was common years ago, if only deduced from the temperature charts. The 5w-30 of today is greatly improved or what it was 20 years ago.
I'm not even sure what some of those old specs for 5W-30 were supposed to achieve. I understood that most 5W-30 oils would shear down to something in the 5W-20 range quickly, and that for the CAFE tests they'd probably make sure to pick an oil that met those requirements. But then you could probably find a more shear stable 5W-30 that doesn't thin out as much, and doesn't achieve the intended effect. And 10W-30s obviously were more shear stable than 5W-30s from the same maker, so that would affect fuel economy.
I'm wondering if the move to 5W-20 oils was partially because the latest oils didn't shear down as much for better fuel economy. A lot of fluids were chosen because of the reality of that particular era. 5W-30s obviously thinned out quickly when 10W-30s didn't. Honda used to specify motor oils as a manual transmission fluid because the majority of motor oils had a high ZDDP content. An oil didn't have to though to meet API SG, and I'm wondering if some boutique oils with unique additive packages might have performed poorly in those applications. An API SN motor oil should be better than an API SG motor oil from the early 90s for most engines, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate for a manual transmission. I hear Honda now recommends their MTL fluid for any vehicle that used to spec 10W-30 or 10W-40 motor oil as the gearbox lube.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I'm not even sure what some of those old specs for 5W-30 were supposed to achieve. I understood that most 5W-30 oils would shear down to something in the 5W-20 range quickly, and that for the CAFE tests they'd probably make sure to pick an oil that met those requirements.
With respect to the switch to 5w-20, that certainly could have been part of the thought process. I'm sure we're not the only ones who thought that if a 5w-30 shears to roughly a 5w-20 and engines still last hundreds of thousands of miles, a robust 5w-20 might do the trick from the start.
I never had a lot of issues with the 5w-30 of the day, really. The taxi fleet stuck mostly to 10w-30. My personal stuff stuck to 5w-30, simply because I was trying to avoid the seasonal change nonsense and my own vehicles had cold starts (and in our winters), which the taxis didn't face being run all day.
The last of my 10w-30 is in the old truck right now, and that's a legacy of one of Walmart's really good sales. Everything got cleaned out except the 10w-30, and I simply couldn't resist.
I'm not even sure what some of those old specs for 5W-30 were supposed to achieve. I understood that most 5W-30 oils would shear down to something in the 5W-20 range quickly, and that for the CAFE tests they'd probably make sure to pick an oil that met those requirements.
With respect to the switch to 5w-20, that certainly could have been part of the thought process. I'm sure we're not the only ones who thought that if a 5w-30 shears to roughly a 5w-20 and engines still last hundreds of thousands of miles, a robust 5w-20 might do the trick from the start.
I never had a lot of issues with the 5w-30 of the day, really. The taxi fleet stuck mostly to 10w-30. My personal stuff stuck to 5w-30, simply because I was trying to avoid the seasonal change nonsense and my own vehicles had cold starts (and in our winters), which the taxis didn't face being run all day.
The last of my 10w-30 is in the old truck right now, and that's a legacy of one of Walmart's really good sales. Everything got cleaned out except the 10w-30, and I simply couldn't resist.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: lubedude13
Flow slower
Flow slower where ?
through a funnel under gravity at ambient temperature ?
Excellent point Shannow.
As opposed to a 5w-30 grade
A 10w-30 grade of equivalent technology, will typically have a lower NOACK. Which is especially nice/good for extended drain intervals and when used under load. As a result it will likely be more durable/have a longer service life as well.
It will arguably be better suited to operation at higher ambient temps(> 0 degrees C)
The only real potential downside is it will be slightly slower to pump through the engine (maybe 1-1.25 seconds) on start up in colder climates. Big deal.
If you're running it and oil pressure comes up without delay on start up, and the engine's not making noises/ticking as a result then there's no problem IMO.
Technically a 10w-30 grade might not be totally relevant due to more advanced oil technology in recent times. Also it may not be fashionable in some quarters.
But it's certainly not totally irrelevant under all operating conditions.
Originally Posted By: lubedude13
Flow slower
Flow slower where ?
through a funnel under gravity at ambient temperature ?
Excellent point Shannow.
As opposed to a 5w-30 grade
A 10w-30 grade of equivalent technology, will typically have a lower NOACK. Which is especially nice/good for extended drain intervals and when used under load. As a result it will likely be more durable/have a longer service life as well.
It will arguably be better suited to operation at higher ambient temps(> 0 degrees C)
The only real potential downside is it will be slightly slower to pump through the engine (maybe 1-1.25 seconds) on start up in colder climates. Big deal.
If you're running it and oil pressure comes up without delay on start up, and the engine's not making noises/ticking as a result then there's no problem IMO.
Technically a 10w-30 grade might not be totally relevant due to more advanced oil technology in recent times. Also it may not be fashionable in some quarters.
But it's certainly not totally irrelevant under all operating conditions.
Originally Posted By: RamFan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I think 10w30 synthetic is obsolete.
10w30 dino isn't.
That pretty much sums it up.
Virtually no auto manufacturer in NA, Europe or Japan specifies the 10W-30 grade any longer and of course a syn' 10W-30 has never been specified because it is technically redundant.
I'm going to bring up my go to engine every time this topic comes up. Chrysler continued to recommend 10w30 in the 3.5l HO V6 until the introduction of the Pentastar 3.6l V6. That switch didn't happen until 2011. There had to be a reason.
The reason is two fold.
First the engine was specifically designed to run on the thinner oil. Thanks to CAFE.
Secondly, to make it work for them properly Chrysler had to design and integrate a dual stage oil pump for the Pentastar engine.
IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I think 10w30 synthetic is obsolete.
10w30 dino isn't.
That pretty much sums it up.
Virtually no auto manufacturer in NA, Europe or Japan specifies the 10W-30 grade any longer and of course a syn' 10W-30 has never been specified because it is technically redundant.
I'm going to bring up my go to engine every time this topic comes up. Chrysler continued to recommend 10w30 in the 3.5l HO V6 until the introduction of the Pentastar 3.6l V6. That switch didn't happen until 2011. There had to be a reason.
The reason is two fold.
First the engine was specifically designed to run on the thinner oil. Thanks to CAFE.
Secondly, to make it work for them properly Chrysler had to design and integrate a dual stage oil pump for the Pentastar engine.
IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Originally Posted By: Ducman
Originally Posted By: RamFan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I think 10w30 synthetic is obsolete.
10w30 dino isn't.
That pretty much sums it up.
Virtually no auto manufacturer in NA, Europe or Japan specifies the 10W-30 grade any longer and of course a syn' 10W-30 has never been specified because it is technically redundant.
I'm going to bring up my go to engine every time this topic comes up. Chrysler continued to recommend 10w30 in the 3.5l HO V6 until the introduction of the Pentastar 3.6l V6. That switch didn't happen until 2011. There had to be a reason.
The reason is two fold.
First the engine was specifically designed to run on the thinner oil. Thanks to CAFE.
Secondly, to make it work for them properly Chrysler had to design and integrate a dual stage oil pump for the Pentastar engine.
IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
"IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all."
Yes we would.
The development of synthetic oils like GC 0W-30 and the high VI M1 0W-40 for the European market reflected the on going tread to higher VI oils for improved multi-grade oil performance. That was the nail in the coffin of the 10W-30 grade which was never popular in Europe in the first place. Obviously nothing to do with CAFE.
The development of the 5W-30 grade in NA would have happened anyway for much the same reasons. It's a better multigrade oil with much improved cold temp' performance.
Originally Posted By: RamFan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I think 10w30 synthetic is obsolete.
10w30 dino isn't.
That pretty much sums it up.
Virtually no auto manufacturer in NA, Europe or Japan specifies the 10W-30 grade any longer and of course a syn' 10W-30 has never been specified because it is technically redundant.
I'm going to bring up my go to engine every time this topic comes up. Chrysler continued to recommend 10w30 in the 3.5l HO V6 until the introduction of the Pentastar 3.6l V6. That switch didn't happen until 2011. There had to be a reason.
The reason is two fold.
First the engine was specifically designed to run on the thinner oil. Thanks to CAFE.
Secondly, to make it work for them properly Chrysler had to design and integrate a dual stage oil pump for the Pentastar engine.
IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
"IMO if it wasn't for that CAFE business, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all."
Yes we would.
The development of synthetic oils like GC 0W-30 and the high VI M1 0W-40 for the European market reflected the on going tread to higher VI oils for improved multi-grade oil performance. That was the nail in the coffin of the 10W-30 grade which was never popular in Europe in the first place. Obviously nothing to do with CAFE.
The development of the 5W-30 grade in NA would have happened anyway for much the same reasons. It's a better multigrade oil with much improved cold temp' performance.
What a lot of people do not realize is that in most of the populated areas of our planet, a 10W-30 oil or one of greater viscosity works fine all year in just about any motor vehicle.
Lighter viscosities than 10W-30 are only needed at high altitudes and in winter weather in the northern parts of the northern hemisphere. Almost all areas of the southern hemisphere are places where light weight oils are not needed in vehicles, except for Antarctica, the far tip of South America, and in the Andes. Maybe a few parts of New Zealand as well, up high and some islands very far south.
5W-30 oils are never going to push the heavier ones out of existence but might take over a lot of the market share. As the climate grows warmer, in a lot of places the winters will no longer be very severe either.
Lighter viscosities than 10W-30 are only needed at high altitudes and in winter weather in the northern parts of the northern hemisphere. Almost all areas of the southern hemisphere are places where light weight oils are not needed in vehicles, except for Antarctica, the far tip of South America, and in the Andes. Maybe a few parts of New Zealand as well, up high and some islands very far south.
5W-30 oils are never going to push the heavier ones out of existence but might take over a lot of the market share. As the climate grows warmer, in a lot of places the winters will no longer be very severe either.
Originally Posted By: Cristobal
Lighter viscosities than 10W-30 are only needed at high altitudes and in winter weather in the northern parts of the northern hemisphere.
This is the issue - the use of the term "needed" and different definitions of "obsolete." You don't "need" anything more than a straight grade for most of the world most of the year, and that includes most of North America. That doesn't mean it's even remotely optimal.
Heck, you can run a straight 30 in -40 weather, if you're willing to use an oil pan heater or light a fire under your oil pan. So, no, 5w-30 isn't "needed" nor is 10w-30.
Also, with respect to higher temperatures, don't forget that a higher VI has benefits for high heat, just as well as it does for the cold.
Lighter viscosities than 10W-30 are only needed at high altitudes and in winter weather in the northern parts of the northern hemisphere.
This is the issue - the use of the term "needed" and different definitions of "obsolete." You don't "need" anything more than a straight grade for most of the world most of the year, and that includes most of North America. That doesn't mean it's even remotely optimal.
Heck, you can run a straight 30 in -40 weather, if you're willing to use an oil pan heater or light a fire under your oil pan. So, no, 5w-30 isn't "needed" nor is 10w-30.
Also, with respect to higher temperatures, don't forget that a higher VI has benefits for high heat, just as well as it does for the cold.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Heck, you can run a straight 30 in -40 weather, if you're willing to use an oil pan heater or light a fire under your oil pan. So, no, 5w-30 isn't "needed" nor is 10w-30.
I know this fellow who grew up in South Dakota. He mentioned going over the oil pan of his dad's tractor with a blowtorch so it could start in the winter. I also once spoke with a Russian WWII veteran who said that on the battlefield of the Eastern Front they would light fires under the engines so they could get the trucks moving. He said that a tiny fire was a valuable ally.
Heck, you can run a straight 30 in -40 weather, if you're willing to use an oil pan heater or light a fire under your oil pan. So, no, 5w-30 isn't "needed" nor is 10w-30.
I know this fellow who grew up in South Dakota. He mentioned going over the oil pan of his dad's tractor with a blowtorch so it could start in the winter. I also once spoke with a Russian WWII veteran who said that on the battlefield of the Eastern Front they would light fires under the engines so they could get the trucks moving. He said that a tiny fire was a valuable ally.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as 10w-30 being obsolete here no oem is calling for it in new vehicles.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer allows/permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the United States.
I work in Aviation and travel quite a bit. I often look at oil related information while overseas. Nearly always, even oils as viscous as 20W-50 are recommended in modern engines in high temperature environments.
As far as 10w-30 being obsolete here no oem is calling for it in new vehicles.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer allows/permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the United States.
I work in Aviation and travel quite a bit. I often look at oil related information while overseas. Nearly always, even oils as viscous as 20W-50 are recommended in modern engines in high temperature environments.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as 10w-30 being obsolete here no oem is calling for it in new vehicles.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the United States.
I work in Aviation and travel quite a bit. I often look at oil related information while overseas. Nearly always, even oils as viscous as 20W-50 are recommended in modern engines in high temperature environments.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than theUnited States CAFE States.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as 10w-30 being obsolete here no oem is calling for it in new vehicles.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the United States.
I work in Aviation and travel quite a bit. I often look at oil related information while overseas. Nearly always, even oils as viscous as 20W-50 are recommended in modern engines in high temperature environments.
Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the
"Conversely, Nearly every manufacturer permits or recommends 10W-30 in their vehicles in countries other than the United States CAFE States."
Precisely. What goes on in the USA is not the same as the world at large.
Precisely. What goes on in the USA is not the same as the world at large.
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