HVAC filters

[alarmguy]

You can spend a lot of money trying to get just a little bit better.
Probably not worth it.

Your circulation feature may actually cost more than running the fan full time.
A lot of energy is used starting the motor 2-3 times an hour.
But we are discussing comfort...not energy savings.... and probably not enough to really matter.
Wear and tear are a moot point.
Indoor fan motors are very robust...they last forever.
In commercial settings you run them 24/7/365 and they still last forever.

Oh yeah, I’m not spending anything, other than to make sure that the Freon charge is correct. Many reputable companies will come back warmer weather when a system is installed during the winter to recheck levels. Last I knew anyway, but not this company.
Factorytuned definitely seems to be in the more uncomfortable comfort level, and by the sound of it, he might be considering spending some money on a dehumidifier.
I certainly can understand the frustration. As I found out two weeks ago, we are definitely on the edge of marginal, but definitely acceptable. I was surprised to see the unit running one day and the temperature actually go up 2° from its setpoint but those conditions rare for our type of use.

I do look forward to verifying the Freon levels and the pressures, I’m on the fence if I buy the gauges and free on myself or just have somebody check it. Past experience, I will probably one day maybe not even this year buy my own gauges. Before we moved into this house last year, I left my old gauges and a tank of Freon r22 with my neighbor at our old house since I had no use for it in the new house.

There might be a misunderstanding with the circulation feature. If during the night the unit doesn’t turn on in one hour. The thermostat will turn on the fan for 20 minutes to circulate the air in the house, which is a terrific feature and in reality you do save energy, making the main part of the house colder so the bedrooms don’t get too hot if I’m explaining that right. If the AC unit does turn on the amount of time it runs is then subtracted from the 20 minutes that the fan would have turned on for without Cooling.


Just stopped in to take a break from washing the house
I also just did this with the terrible Apple text to speech on my iPhone so excuse any typos, but I have to get back out to washing the house

 

[tbm5690]

You can spend a lot of money trying to get just a little bit better.
Probably not worth it.

Your circulation feature may actually cost more than running the fan full time.
A lot of energy is used starting the motor 2-3 times an hour.
But we are discussing comfort...not energy savings.... and probably not enough to really matter.
Wear and tear are a moot point.
Indoor fan motors are very robust...they last forever.
In commercial settings you run them 24/7/365 and they still last forever.

I use circulation mode with a variable speed blower...my understanding is that start-up consumption is considerably lower than with a traditional single speed or dual speed fan.

As @alarmguy said, Honeywell tstats cycles the fan once per hour for 20 minutes when on circulation mode during hours where the system is not already cycling for heating/cooling calls.

 

[csandste]

Didn't read all responses, but more than one HVAC repair guy has told me that people buying too good a filter with all filtration and no flow is their biggest source of service calls. Think this parallels the original BITOG's comments on automotive filtration.

 

[Hall]

Right now it's only 75* but 84% humidity. High for today is 98*. It's gonna be 105-110* heat index.

Blech

You gotta be in the deep south with that humidity, yeah ? We were in FL in mid-June and even at 10pm, it was .

 

[I<3oil]

You gotta be in the deep south with that humidity, yeah ? We were in FL in mid-June and even at 10pm, it was .

NE Kansas

Right now it’s 92 feels like 102

 

[johnmyster]

Converted my undersized return housing to fit a 4" deep glassfloss filter. (Filterbuy on amazon was junk.)

Deeper pleats correspond to increased filter area. More area means reduced face velocity. Reduced face velocity means less pressure required to move a given amount of air through the filter.

Return duct pressure drop has never been lower. Current draw measured for the blower motor is down. More flow across air handler coils for the win. Ran the first filter for over a year and still had less than 0.5" of water column across the system.

I'm now using MERV12 filters and have less pressure drop than the blue fiberglass $2.99 jobber.

Get your airflow right before having freon levels adjusted.

 

[mr_boring]

I have a 2 ton for 1225. At outside temps under about 88, it'll cool it down to 69-70 in late afternoon. Unless I use the kitchen..... or run the dryer.....
Above 90 - it's going to stay at 72 from 1600 until a few hours after dark. Doesn't seem to matter if it's 90 or 98.

My laundry room is just off of my kitchen, and there is a window where I could put a window unit in that would blow straight into the kitchen. I think about popping a little cheap 5-600 btu unit in that window once in a while just to see if I could cook at 1700 hours on a 98f day when the heat index is 115. Those don't come often, but when they do they tend to last a few weeks. I hate those weeks.

 

[alarmguy]

I have a 2 ton for 1225. At outside temps under about 88, it'll cool it down to 69-70 in late afternoon. Unless I use the kitchen..... or run the dryer.....
Above 90 - it's going to stay at 72 from 1600 until a few hours after dark. Doesn't seem to matter if it's 90 or 98.

My laundry room is just off of my kitchen, and there is a window where I could put a window unit in that would blow straight into the kitchen. I think about popping a little cheap 5-600 btu unit in that window once in a while just to see if I could cook at 1700 hours on a 98f day when the heat index is 115. Those don't come often, but when they do they tend to last a few weeks. I hate those weeks.

I suspect this is an older home?
2 tons seems substantial for 1200 sq ft Not that I know much other than we have a 2 ton for 1800 sq ft built last year
The window unit make a lot of sense if all the regular stuff if up to par, attic insulation, freon level, condenser housing fins washed down, stuff like that.

 

[alarmguy]

Get your airflow right before having freon levels adjusted.

Yeah, I like deep filters.

@factorytuned2012 I heard something for the first time last night from a neighbor.
I dont think it's absolute for all installs. He tells me when contractors put in the HVAC systems in the new homes by th major production builders that the system and lines are pre- charged with freon and they just snap together the connections. I dont see how that can be, I can see how it is with ductless systems but a 2 ton Lennox?

 

[alarmguy]

@factorytuned2012 (and whomever else)

1. Thought I would let you know I put a review on Lennox site for my unit. I said the unit seems good but not happy with he installer. I gave 2 stars. Well, to my surprise one day later Lennox contacted me and asked me to contact them with more details to customer service. I complained they want to charge me to come to my house to check on their bad install (in so many words)
I got a canned response *LOL* well written below.

2. I dont think this is true, but I dont feel like taking the insulation off the lines outside to check but a neighbor (not always reliable, talks faster then he thinks sometimes) told me its been a long time form the days the installer fills the freon with a tank on his truck. He told be everything is pre-charged lines, compressor etc

3. If the above is true I do not want anyone opening up the system to check freon. I have that little faith in service personal. There are some good ones but a lot more bad ones. I trust myself more. I remember my last house, before I successfully charged the system myself after a guy told me the freon was fine, he then sprayed down the condenser coils with full strength cleaner and melted the beautiful black anti corrosion paint right off the coils. I mean, like melted plastic. I was so pissed. Once I bought my own freon and gauges the system worked perfect until we sold the house when it hit 16 years old.

So all in all I am good with the performance after hearing in-put from you and others, once I learned its only a 2 ton unit in an 1800 sq ft home I guess it will only do so much. The one failing to me was less than a handful of times in the last 14 months where I was wishing for a little more cooling power. But the worst was the day two weeks ago with company here and the oven going on a HOT humid day.

We keep what others consider our house warm some people might say "hot" drives me nuts *LOL* Our day time set temperature is 76/77 and nighttime 72 Are we so spoiled that people think temperatures anywhere in the 70s is hot? *LOL*
So I am just explaining if I thought about it ahead of time that day I would have started the temp off at 75 instead of lowering it to 75 from only to climb to 79 in the middle of the day with a house of people and hot humid too.

I assume being you know a lot of systems, they went over the ductwork in your attic, condenser coils clean stuff like that. I do understand now, 2 ton is borderline and leaves ZERO margin of error on the builder. I didnt know that building code not sure if that is nation or just our local area along the coast is a 75 degree standard. I did learn a little about the system as I have the model and serial numbers on my computer and never thought to read up on it. I see the ML17XP is a high efficiency rated (Seer 18) unit I guess because of all the condenser coils? All I know is our house was being built coming out of covid supply restrictions and think we just got lucky as just after the first 50 homes were built the newer homes are getting Carrier units at half the height I mean really small its still catches my eye when I see them.

(look forward to any thoughts from anyone) All I want to know for sure is if my freon level is correct or are the units Pre charged before install and no concern. Low pressure side is wet and in the cooler weather last night 75 degrees input vs output spread was 18 degrees and late at night 20 degrees. On a hot day it is much lower.

 

[Nukeman7]

(look forward to any thoughts from anyone) All I want to know for sure is if my freon level is correct or are the units Pre charged before install and no concern. Low pressure side is wet and in the cooler weather last night 75 degrees input vs output spread was 18 degrees and late at night 20 degrees. On a hot day it is much lower.

Your neighbor gave you (mostly) incorrect information. As you indicated, most, if not all mini-split systems come pre-charge with refrigerant from the factory so drawing a vacuum and installing R-410 (for now) is not required. The only whole-house HVAC systems that come pre-charged with refrigerant are the "gas package" or rooftop units where the A/C compressor/condenser/evaporator and gas furnace are assembled in a single housing box that resides outside the residence. The unit is set in-place on a foundation and the only connections are electrical power/thermostat, natural gas/propane supply line, PVC condensate drain and the air duct into the home. Conventional split unit systems typically have to be evacuated and charged, although an individual component like the evaporator coil might be pre-charged with dry nitrogen to preclude moisture infiltration.

 

[alarmguy]

Your neighbor gave you (mostly) incorrect information. As you indicated, most, if not all mini-split systems come pre-charge with refrigerant from the factory so drawing a vacuum and installing R-410 (for now) is not required. The only whole-house HVAC systems that come pre-charged with refrigerant are the "gas package" or rooftop units where the A/C compressor/condenser/evaporator and gas furnace are assembled in a single housing box that resides outside the residence. The unit is set in-place on a foundation and the only connections are electrical power/thermostat, natural gas/propane supply line, PVC condensate drain and the air duct into the home.

THANK YOU!
As you can see by my post I was skeptical, this guy claims he was in heat and air a while ago. Great guy but talks a lot and he is wrong about a lot of things. Even then when pointed out he will be the first to admit once he checks something. He just talks a lot and seems to be wrong on many things. I haven't run into that personality in a long time.
I appreciate your reply and based on that, I may and will most likely look into the charge level, no emergency and have no idea who to contact because you never know who will be sent to your house even though @factorytuned2012 seemed to get a couple good ones... I may even check them out. I just dont know at this point after understanding we only have a 2 ton unit.
I do find it amazing that all these seer numbers mean nothing at all if a system is not perfectly charged. Am I the only one who thinks like this?

 

[MrJayhawk]

If you would like the HVAC equivalent of BITOG, visit hvac-talk.com. Multiple forums, including one you can ask pro advice.

 

[alarmguy]

If you would like the HVAC equivalent of BITOG, visit hvac-talk.com. Multiple forums, including one you can ask pro advice.

Wow, great site. I just read the thread "3 month old system going insane"
Man, gotta really feel for some people, Im feeling really fortunate right now. Hey, call me old school but electricity is dirt cheap where I live (10 cent kWr) I dont understand how people get sold on over complicated systems when a basic system (in my eyes) will be boatloads more reliable. I dont understand the desire to complicate a very simple process if left alone. Sometimes with little to no benefit and many times detriment long term.

I would have never thought, in this persons case when he upgraded to a multi-stage system the incredible amount of issues it created and now has a disaster of a system that one poster explained should have never been installed where the previous ductwork was designed for a 1 stage system.

 

[Nukeman7]

@alarmguy, here is a great video that shows you how to determine whether the system is charged properly by using Superheat and Subcooling measurements/calculations. You would need to have a R410 compatible gauge set and an IR thermometer to take the measurements, but the calculations are not complicated at all. He shows measurements on a single-stage system, but the measurements should be the same on a multi-stage unit running at 100% capacity.

 

[Nukeman7]

Wow, great site. I just read the thread "3 month old system going insane"
Man, gotta really feel for some people, Im feeling really fortunate right now. Hey, call me old school but electricity is dirt cheap where I live (10 cent kWr) I dont understand how people get sold on over complicated systems when a basic system (in my eyes) will be boatloads more reliable. I dont understand the desire to complicate a very simple process if left alone. Sometimes with little to no benefit and many times detriment long term.

I would have never thought, in this persons case when he upgraded to a multi-stage system the incredible amount of issues it created and now has a disaster of a system that one poster explained should have never been installed where the previous ductwork was designed for a 1 stage system.

I just read that same thread and have concluded that the "CMT" contractors that did the installation and follow-up visits are inept. Just looking at the Superheat value of 33 degrees (when the max. should be 14 degrees) and the EXV position showing "N/A" tells me the thermo expansion valve (EXV/TXV) is defective. That is why the system is not cooling adequately, although the oversized ductwork contributes to the uneven distribution of conditioned air. Also, did you notice the label on the Carrier condenser unit that stated "Installation Prohibited in Southwest" and the home was located in Texas?

While single and two stage units are less complex and thus inherently less prone to breakdown, there are many multi-stage/variable displacement units that operate reliably...if installed and maintained correctly. This case highlights the old adage that a budget brand builder-grade HVAC system installed correctly is better than a premium brand high-end HVAC unit installed poorly.

 

[factorytuned2012]

I was under the assumption just about all newer systems come pre charged. That's why although you can install the system yourself the average diy doesn't have the equipment to charge and flush the line set with nitrogen before opening the king valve which will pressurize the system with refrigerant.

 

[Nukeman7]

THANK YOU!
As you can see by my post I was skeptical, this guy claims he was in heat and air a while ago. Great guy but talks a lot and he is wrong about a lot of things. Even then when pointed out he will be the first to admit once he checks something. He just talks a lot and seems to be wrong on many things. I haven't run into that personality in a long time.
I appreciate your reply and based on that, I may and will most likely look into the charge level, no emergency and have no idea who to contact because you never know who will be sent to your house even though @factorytuned2012 seemed to get a couple good ones... I may even check them out. I just dont know at this point after understanding we only have a 2 ton unit.
I do find it amazing that all these seer numbers mean nothing at all if a system is not perfectly charged. Am I the only one who thinks like this?

@alarmguy, please ignore my previous Post #111 above. It turns out that the newest HVAC units DO come pre-charged with refrigerant as stated by the OP above. I verified this by the video below.

 

[alarmguy]

@alarmguy, please ignore my previous Post #111 above. It turns out that the newest HVAC units DO come pre-charged with refrigerant as stated by the OP above. I verified this by the video below.

Huh?
No, I think you are right the first time. How could something come precharged if they don’t know the length of run of the high and low precious lines up into an attic or basement?
It doesn’t make any sense at all
Also in the video that you show me at the 34 minute market shows you the person charging the system with the tank of Freon including the use of a scale calculating how much will go in per foot of line used

It’s possible I’m not understanding something here, including exactly what is a precharge
My understanding is with the Douglas system. The lines and system are charged. You just snap them in.

 

[John105]

I use what came with the new system although expensive….Aprilaire 413’s….follow Aprilaire’s guidance and replace 1x per year.