I love Toyota hybrids and have owned several Toyota PU trucks over the years.
I cannot understand why their EVs perform so poorly.
I cannot understand why their EVs perform so poorly.
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The current Toyota and Subaru BEVs do not use solid state batteries.
Everyone knows (and Toyota admits) that the Toyota and Subaru BEVs are inferior products. Toyota and Subaru did not engineer and develop them, BYD did through their BYD Toyota EV Technology (BTET) partnership, and are mostly manufactured in China (with some assembly in Japan). They are current Chinese state of the art, not Toyota state of the art. They now realize that it was a big mistake to rush these to market simply to quiet detractors and criticism.
You can be sure that Toyota has it's own BEVs fully engineered and waiting in the wings for the solid state batteries when they become available. You can also be sure that it will be way more advanced than what is currently available on the market.
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Because they are BYD products, not Toyota products.
Having patents mean absolutely nothing. You can buy them and you can patent silly things like the shape of the battery or something like that. That's why there are thousands of patents for every little silly thing. The basic series hybrid idea certainly wasn't Toyotas. I don't remember where I saw the patent, but it was from around 60s, perhaps it was Porsche's, but don't remember exactly.
If they were truly so advanced that everyone else was using their patents, then they would be leading in the BEV segment and they are quite behind instead.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
No, I'm aware of that, but there are solid state batteries currently in use and they have some shortcomings. I've posted information on them previously.
Yes, when compared to products which likely have the same cells in them.
I don't think they are anybody's state of the art. Most cells are made in China, this is just a poorly engineered product sold under the Toyota brand. It's a poor effort and certainly doesn't give one confidence in future products in this segment from the brand.
Way more advanced than their current offerings? I'd hope so. Than offerings from peer companies? That's unlikely. Toyota has never been one to lead on tech, their approach has, historically, been to be slow, focusing on established and mature technologies. This has generally served them well. It's why the interior on the 2021 Sequoia is on-par, tech-wise, with a 2005 F-150 or RAM 1500.
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OVERKILL
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That's how the Ramcharger is setup. It uses a 3.6L Pentastar as a generator, and the vehicle has a large battery as well (not like a little PHEV battery).
I get why that would be beneficial but I can't think of anything more annoying than a constant drone of an engine at a consistent RPM. I'd rather put my finger through my eye. It's bad enough listening to it on a locomotive every day. I know it wouldn't be that loud, but I'll take a 10 minute longer stop to charge than listen to it, especially for how little I charge away from home as it is.
They chose not-to rush into the BEV market, which IMO was the right derision based on what the other auto manufacturers are now doing. They didn't want to dive into the BEV segment until they had solid state batteries available. Early-on Toyota was very concerned about the safety of Li-Ion batteries, to such an extent that they still use NiMh batteries in most of their hybrids.
This I was not aware of. I just figured they weren't taking EVs as seriously as other manufacturers and it was a compliance car. I know it happens though I've never understood making a car for that purpose. They're rarely good with that motivation.
And you know all of this how? You talk as if you were right there making decisions with them.
And if they are waiting for the solid state batteries, what's the point for all of these patents you mentioned earlier? It makes little sense for a corporation not to utilize an advantage. Not sure how it makes sense to you, but to me it doesn't.
I worked at Toyota dealerships for the better part of 30 years. I know people on the inside who know.
Engineering and patenting something is not the same as developing it, manufacturing it, and bringing it to market. This is a very time and resource consuming process.
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You just make it really quiet. Seriously, without it connected to an entire drive line and with some sound deadening, engine mounts that do a real good job of isolating the engine, and sound cancellation technology, you shouldn't even know it's there - it isn't hard. I recently drove a 2025 Camry hybrid and the experience was pleasantly surprising by how little I was aware of the engine except at very high rpm.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
The current crop of solid state batteries are still lithium based, it's the best metal for the job and enables the highest energy density.
Toyota using NiMh is exactly the type of slow methodic approach we are used to seeing from the brand. Still using 4 speed transmissions when everyone else was using 6, then 8. And then them introducing an 8spd that was hot garbage because they were too quick to bring it to market. They don't ALWAYS get it right. Other examples would be the oil drinking engines (forgot how to design piston oil return holes apparently) or the sludgers (forgot how to design oil drainback properly). But, their approach of being the tortoise, rather than the hare, has generally worked out well for them and garnered them a reputation for perhaps not having the most comfortable or well furnished vehicles, but ones that are very reliable, on the whole.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Article about Toyota/BYD partnership. The BEV's from Toyota and Subaru are hardly a "BYD product" alone. Everything i've read says co-engineered. But if there's information to the contrary, i'd be happy to read it.
https://insideevs.com/news/696789/toyota-byd-ev-partnership-manufacturing-interview/
https://insideevs.com/news/696789/toyota-byd-ev-partnership-manufacturing-interview/
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The 3.6 is a quiet engine, I didn't notice it in my jeep while cruising along, it just blends into the road/wind noise. It's not like you're getting a lot of RPM variation on a long trip in a traditional gasser anyway, you generally hang out at one speed unless you hit traffic or have to pass etc.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That article is 180 degrees from the argument being made in this thread, lol.
Not really.
You guys didn't even know that BYD was involved with Toyota on BEVs until I told you.
The above referenced article talks more about the bZ3 EV sedan than the bZ4X. The bZ3 is newer and has more Toyota DNA in it than the bZ4X which has mostly BYD DNA in it. The bZ3 is currently only available in China.
FYI, Toyota is also involved in a second partnership with another Chinese auto manufacturer, FAW (FAW Toyota Motor Co., Ltd.). FAW manufactures several Toyota models in China that Toyota sells in China. FAW is entirely owned by the Chinese Government. This is Toyota in action to counteract potential tariffs. Tariffs are the primary reason that Toyota started manufacturing vehicles in the US in the early 80s.
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I’ve always had more aggressive engines tuned to give more noise from the factory so that might be the reason behind my thought on this one.
Kinda hard to understand why Toyota, or any car company, would invest in and release such a poor performing EV product if they had superior technology. Their EVs sit unsold on dealership lots. A big fat black eye.
It makes zero sense.
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