Ford CEO Says Large Electric Trucks And SUVs Have 'Unresolvable' Problems

[alarmguy]

Any why most all EVs are small or paired down compared to gasoline models of the same price. The cost of producing a large one, most likely because cost (and weight) of the battery is more than the public will pay?
Clearly we are not seeing huge or even midsize SUVs and Vans that are powered by batteries. It's quite evident all around us.

 

[alarmguy]

Recent events make Toyota's measured approach to EVs appear wise if not prescient. Harry Metcalfe recently discussed related topics and shared valuable insights:

Yeah, when you think about this, it's already been going on for almost two years now when GM significantly paired back plans in 2022/23 and it continues today, with less than 3% of vehicles on the road being electric, 2024 already had a glut of inventory that had to sustain price cuts to clear the lots. AND this is with our tax dollars giving away free $7,500 at time of purchase.
Even the resale market is terrible regarding the depreciation on EVs and still with $4,000 of free taxpayer money to buy one.

Maybe for once, GM was ahead of the curve! Actually at the same time (2 years back) they announced a brand new V-8 engine plant.

EVs arent going away, it has its specific uses but gasoline will continue to rule the road for at least 50 maybe 100 years as a majority or a better alternative to a battery powered car or the battery itself. Way too expensive.

 

[hemioiler]

Nice to hear him finally admit it, but he could have saved millions by just asking any traditional truck buyer. We all knew EV trucks wouldn't work

Ram came to that same conclusion a while ago by reprioritizing the ram charger instead of the BEV.

 

[2005jettatdi]

I can confirm this. It’s probably the only downside of dynamic braking. It would be regenerative if there was a set of batteries to capture it.

From trains.com, How dynamic brakes work:

"On downhill grades, when an engineer places the locomotive in dynamic brake mode, the traction motors are converted from being electric motors consuming electricity to generators creating electricity. The locomotive changes the electrical path from the traction motors to route the electricity to a set of resistance grids that convert the electrical energy produced to heat. As the engineer moves the dynamic brake lever in the cab, the amount of excitation applied to the generator changes the level of resistance."

I have been wondering why it would not make more sense for our Accord Hybrid to have an engine that is always running and charging the battery.

 

[kschachn]

From trains.com, How dynamic brakes work:

"On downhill grades, when an engineer places the locomotive in dynamic brake mode, the traction motors are converted from being electric motors consuming electricity to generators creating electricity. The locomotive changes the electrical path from the traction motors to route the electricity to a set of resistance grids that convert the electrical energy produced to heat. As the engineer moves the dynamic brake lever in the cab, the amount of excitation applied to the generator changes the level of resistance."

I have been wondering why it would not make more sense for our Accord Hybrid to have an engine that is always running and charging the battery.

Yes. The energy is dumped overboard as heat.

 

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

Edison was right and wrong. You want the ULTIMATE fuel economy for long hauls?
Turbine electric engine hybrid.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Maybe Ford CEO should have considered that before investing those billion$ ? Ya think?

 

[supton]

Maybe Ford CEO should have considered that before investing those billion$ ? Ya think?

Eh, R&D costs. Companies routinely invest in dead-end technologies--but they don't know that going in. It looks promising, so they have to run with it, until it doesn't work, or the next better thing comes along.

Arguably in this case... some of it was chasing the direction the wind was blowing. Market might go this way, so, need to stay on top of it so as to not get eaten by the competition. It's hard to keep many irons in the fire, but if you have too few, you may get overtaken.

Who knows what IP they get to take out of any misguided adventure. Good chance that whatever convertors they developed for high power can be reused for smaller invertors. Or control algorithms or who knows what. Chances are they are not just tossing away the filing cabinet of knowledge.

 

[KrisZ]

Toyota dumped billions into their hydrogen program only to scrap it recently. Oh they’re so smart

 

[supton]

Toyota dumped billions into their hydrogen program only to scrap it recently. Oh they’re so smart

I always that was the dumbest idea... maybe not quite ever but right up there. Only possible use might be for a lunar rover, something exotic like that. Developing IP that could be used for something else where it might actually be useful.

 

[alarmguy]

Toyota dumped billions into their hydrogen program only to scrap it recently. Oh they’re so smart

Wrong-
Many vehicle manufacturers continue to research H2 vehicles. At the present time, that is the only solution if you want all vehicles to be electric and or emission free. Batteries in their present form will never be able to fulfill public demand for complete solution. Impossible, inconvenient, expensive and time consuming. Something the public has always avoided.

BTW -
Toyota has scrapped nothing. Also can anyone mention a vehicle manufacturer who has not spent billions in research?
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/cars/toyota-hydrogen-vehicle-project-range-refuelling

https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/innovation/drive-technologies/hydrogen.html

Besides Fuel Cell we also have H2 combustion engines. Dont worry, if the world doesnt jump on board fast, China may once again surprise everyone!

https://www.topspeed.com/companies-invested-in-hydrogen-combustion-engines/

This is just my opinion but to think as current EVs as advanced, I just do not personally see it. I have had remote controlled lithium Helicopters and 4 wheel drive trucks for over a decade to 15 or more years.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The corallory is, perhaps Ford cannot make EV trucks profitable. Perhaps others? Dunno.

 

[alarmguy]

The corallory is, perhaps Ford cannot make EV trucks profitable. Perhaps others? Dunno.

Has anyone made EV trucks profitable? We would need specific numbers from all companies.
GM claims it will be by the end of 2025 but I think that encompasses all their EV offerings combined.

 

[KrisZ]

Wrong-
Many vehicle manufacturers continue to research H2 vehicles. At the present time, that is the only solution if you want all vehicles to be electric and or emission free. Batteries in their present form will never be able to fulfill public demand for complete solution. Impossible, inconvenient, expensive and time consuming. Something the public has always avoided.

BTW -
Toyota has scrapped nothing. Also can anyone mention a vehicle manufacturer who has not spent billions in research?
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/cars/toyota-hydrogen-vehicle-project-range-refuelling

https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/innovation/drive-technologies/hydrogen.html

Besides Fuel Cell we also have H2 combustion engines. Dont worry, if the world doesnt jump on board fast, China may once again surprise everyone!

https://www.topspeed.com/companies-invested-in-hydrogen-combustion-engines/

This is just my opinion but to think as current EVs as advanced, I just do not personally see it. I have had remote controlled lithium Helicopters and 4 wheel drive trucks for over a decade to 15 or more years.

So Toyota continues to dump billions into hydrogen, they are even “smarter” than I originally thought.

Your post reminds me of posts in regards to EVs in the past. It too was “look over here, so and so is also doing it”.

My point was that Toyota’s lack of EV investment is more to do with the circumstances the company was in (strong hybrid program and heavy investment in hydrogen) than their ability to predict the future or their supposed smarts.

 

[ripcord]

Maybe Ford CEO should have considered that before investing those billion$ ? Ya think?

They had a Federal mandate that left them little choice. Their cash cow product is the ICE powered F-150 which they were not going to be able to continue producing for long.

 

[wag123]

My point was that Toyota’s lack of EV investment is more to do with the circumstances the company was in (strong hybrid program and heavy investment in hydrogen) than their ability to predict the future or their supposed smarts.

You have this backwards.
Toyota's R&D investment in hybrid technology beginning in the mid 1980's and resulting in thousands of patents has directly benefited and made today's BEVs possible. ALL of the BEVs on the market are using a number of technologies developed and patented by Toyota.
Toyota takes the long view on everything they do. They are working on technologies now that we don't currently know anything about and may not come to fruition for 15-20 years (if ever), their hydrogen developments being only one technology among many others. Take solid state batteries for example. Toyota and their partner Panasonic (both industry giants) have been developing them for at least 15 years (and perhaps much longer). Notice how quiet they have been over the last year and a half about how close they are to actual full scale production? The last thing they said was that they were going to be producing and using them in their vehicles beginning in 2026. I'll tell you one thing, they aren't constructing a state-of-the-art $14 billion battery production facility to manufacture conventional Li-Ion batteries.

 

[KrisZ]

You have this backwards.
Toyota's R&D investment in hybrid technology beginning in the mid 1980's and resulting in thousands of patents has directly benefited and made today's BEVs possible. ALL of the BEVs on the market are using a number of technologies developed and patented by Toyota.
Toyota takes the long view on everything they do. They are working on technologies now that we don't currently know anything about and may not come to fruition for 15-20 years (if ever), their hydrogen developments being only one technology among many others. Take solid state batteries for example. Toyota and their partner Panasonic (both industry giants) have been developing them for at least 15 years (and perhaps much longer). Notice how quiet they have been over the last year and a half about how close they are to actual full scale production? The last thing they said was that they were going to be producing and using them in their vehicles beginning in 2026. I'll tell you one thing, they aren't constructing a state-of-the-art $14 billion battery production facility to manufacture conventional Li-Ion batteries.

Yeah sure, what are these patents?
The series hybrid patent I believe was filed in the 60s and that's the one that Toyota probably bought and definitely used.
GM predates their EV and Hydrogen car by quite a margin as well. Not sure where your getting all this fantastic Toyota accomplishments from.

 

[OVERKILL]

You have this backwards.
Toyota's R&D investment in hybrid technology beginning in the mid 1980's and resulting in thousands of patents has directly benefited and made today's BEVs possible. ALL of the BEVs on the market are using a number of technologies developed and patented by Toyota.
Toyota takes the long view on everything they do. They are working on technologies now that we don't currently know anything about and may not come to fruition for 15-20 years (if ever), their hydrogen developments being only one technology among many others. Take solid state batteries for example. Toyota and their partner Panasonic (both industry giants) have been developing them for at least 15 years (and perhaps much longer). Notice how quiet they have been over the last year and a half about how close they are to actual full scale production? The last thing they said was that they were going to be producing and using them in their vehicles beginning in 2026. I'll tell you one thing, they aren't constructing a state-of-the-art $14 billion battery production facility to manufacture conventional Li-Ion batteries.

Hopefully Toyota's solid state cells are better performing than the existing ones on the market. Their current BEV is certainly underwhelming, having the worst cold climate charge performance of all the vehicles tested by CAA, and the 2nd worst range loss:

Range:
Toyota bZ4X: 255 km of 406 km range (-37%)

Charge speed (range added in 15 minutes):
Toyota bZ4X: 19 displayed km added

 

[wag123]

Yeah sure, what are these patents?
The series hybrid patent I believe was filed in the 60s and that's the one that Toyota probably bought and definitely used.
GM predates their EV and Hydrogen car by quite a margin as well. Not sure where your getting all this fantastic Toyota accomplishments from.

You don't know what you are talking about Kris.
Toyota has 23,740 patents awarded over more than 35 years of hybrid/electrified vehicle technology development (which they are graciously allowing other auto manufacturers to freely use through 2030). Furthermore, Toyota has added 5,680 patents related to its fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEV), 2,590 patents related to electric motors, 2,020 patents related to PCUs, 7,550 patents related to system controls, 1,320 engine transaxle patents, 2,200 charger patents, 2,380 fuel cell patents, and 8,274 solid-state battery patents. Google it. Every auto manufacturer in the world is using Toyota patents in their hybrids and BEVs.
You obviously don't like Toyota for some reason, but you shouldn't denigrate or underestimate their accomplishments. Their competitors certainly don't.

 

[PWMDMD]

Electric motors driving the wheels with a gas range extender that just drives a generator. The best of all worlds - allows the engine to run at optimal RPMs, allows a smaller and less expensive/lighter battery without range anxiety.