Fine Particles in Oil

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Wondering if there are any conclusions yet about this issue. On another thread the claim was Amsoil paid for an engine. Auto engines usually have some kind of bypass valve, so why wouldn't that prevent oil starvation? Maybe some bypass valves are not flowing enough? Maybe it has been discussed before.
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A bypass valve may not flow enough. In some engines a filter can alter flow. Normally this isn't the case. It depends on pump design/characteristics.

If his oil pump has been ground to the point where it looks like it has been dipped in acid or spent too much time in the media blast cabinet .AND the filter is plugged with metal particles, then it wouldn't matter if the bypass was a 3/4" open bore. By that I mean 8-12lb of threshold (at that point) is a substantial restriction to an oil pump that doesn't need a relief valve to bleed off volume. If the sender/sensor is between the pump and the filter, he'll never know it with an idiot light.

..but I would expect him to hear something..
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Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
You might have starved the top of the engine of oil by not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda. If the engine was starved of oil, then there was nothing to come between the moving parts and hence the particles you see. Honda engines, as I have read, have very tight tolerances and as such require a thin oil for proper lubrication. Try a 5w-20 next time and see if the particles are still present.


+1

Some engines are just the opposite.
Tight clearances!!!! And the 10w-30 will fit between the parts and is not what you say. Bad call.
 
It is tighter clearances not tolerances. I would venture to say every major engine manufacturer today is capable of, and produces, the same tolerances as Honda and vice versa. They may not boast about it so much.

How about running a magnet around in the chips to see if iron?
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
A bypass valve may not flow enough. In some engines a filter can alter flow. Normally this isn't the case. It depends on pump design/characteristics.

If his oil pump has been ground to the point where it looks like it has been dipped in acid or spent too much time in the media blast cabinet .AND the filter is plugged with metal particles, then it wouldn't matter if the bypass was a 3/4" open bore. By that I mean 8-12lb of threshold (at that point) is a substantial restriction to an oil pump that doesn't need a relief valve to bleed off volume. If the sender/sensor is between the pump and the filter, he'll never know it with an idiot light.

..but I would expect him to hear something..
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Sounds logical. Seems something is very odd going on, because apparently Amsoil, as example, recommends the Mann flter or Wix in these cases. Here we have RP made by Champ, and I believe Amsoil is Donaldson, so they won't have the same bypass valves. Have to wait for further news about the RP filter innards, and the rattling sound it makes. Maybe if a bypass spring is stressed open long enough, it can break. Well, that makes no sense does it.
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Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
I forget to add, that the internals of the filter rattles a lot. You can hear a lot of clunking when you move the filter around. That is why I believe I got a defective filter.


Maybe, but maybe not. It could still be that you had a component failure in the engine that loaded up the filter media until it collapsed. But if so, looking at the media should reveal it. Determining cause and effect is difficult in these cases because certain behaviors can cause each other. A collapsed filter can cause engine damage. Engine damage can shed material and collapse a filter. Chicken and egg.

I agree, a third-party investigation of the filter is a good idea, or at least video document the opening. I personally think RP would fess up if they found anything questionable- replacing your engine is small change to them, and pays back MORE than it cost them in goodwill. However, I still believe in "trust but verify," and so should they, frankly.
 
Originally Posted By: Newtonville


Sounds logical. Seems something is very odd going on, because apparently Amsoil, as example, recommends the Mann flter or Wix in these cases. Here we have RP made by Champ, and I believe Amsoil is Donaldson, so they won't have the same bypass valves. Have to wait for further news about the RP filter innards, and the rattling sound it makes. Maybe if a bypass spring is stressed open long enough, it can break. Well, that makes no sense does it.
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Amsoil Ea013 WAS made by WIX.
 
Quote:
not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda.


OP, what does it say on your filler cap?
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And how is your car running, btw? And has it ever done this again?

Are you SURE you saw low Oil?

Something is not right here, especially if it did it once and never did it again
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.. Any Oil puddles under car? Leaks? Blown something? HOW DOES THE CAR DRIVE AT THIS TIME?

Maybe it wasnt low and all is OK and it really was filter.................
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Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is tighter clearances not tolerances. I would venture to say every major engine manufacturer today is capable of, and produces, the same tolerances as Honda and vice versa. They may not boast about it so much.

How about running a magnet around in the chips to see if iron?


Good idea I am going to try this. What if it doesn't stick and what if it does?
 
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Quote:
not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda.


OP, what does it say on your filler cap?
33.gif


And how is your car running, btw? And has it ever done this again?

Are you SURE you saw low Oil?

Something is not right here, especially if it did it once and never did it again
54.gif


.. Any Oil puddles under car? Leaks? Blown something? HOW DOES THE CAR DRIVE AT THIS TIME?

Maybe it wasnt low and all is OK and it really was filter.................
thumbsup2.gif



The oil level was fine. The oil fill cap say 5w-30 but the manual says I can use 10w-30 in warmer temperature.
 
As of right now, my car is running fine. I took it out for a spin yesterday, I even punch it for a little.

I know particles don't come out of no where.

I am waiting for a reply from them right now.
 
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
It is tighter clearances not tolerances. I would venture to say every major engine manufacturer today is capable of, and produces, the same tolerances as Honda and vice versa. They may not boast about it so much.

How about running a magnet around in the chips to see if iron?


Good idea I am going to try this. What if it doesn't stick and what if it does?


Does stick = Is Iron.
Doesnt = Isnt.
 
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
As of right now, my car is running fine


Sounds like all is well. Just dont use what you had been using again. That would be dumb, given this weird freak incient with your Honda.

Use normal stuff. Its a Honda.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
As of right now, my car is running fine


Sounds like all is well. Just dont use what you had been using again. That would be dumb, given this weird freak incient with your Honda.

Use normal stuff. Its a Honda.
thumbsup2.gif



Yeah, Pureone from now on. Its been working for me all time.

I just did the magnet thing, and none of the particles were attacted to it.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
The particulate matter was from the parts that did not get oil, or were severely starved.
The filter seems to have blocked flow and caused damage.

Even though the car runs now, there may be severe damage that took thousands of miles of life and performance away.


Exactly what I was thinking. Running fine now is one thing, running fine at 90 or 100 K miles is another story. I never saw metal like that in a good running engine. Something is wrong. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
As of right now, my car is running fine.


Maybe, but does it have 7 PSI of oil pressure (or whatever is just enough to keep the idiot light off) or does it have the CORRECT oil pressure?
 
Filter looks like a Champ labs manufactured filter. A 7317 in Fram PN talk. And that would be the right PN for the K20. Should have a bypass inside, correct?
 
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
As of right now, my car is running fine


Sounds like all is well. Just dont use what you had been using again. That would be dumb, given this weird freak incient with your Honda.

Use normal stuff. Its a Honda.
thumbsup2.gif



Yeah, Pureone from now on. Its been working for me all time.

I just did the magnet thing, and none of the particles were attacted to it.


I would say the particles most likely are aluminum, and from the rocker arms. If the engine in 09 still has rocker arms like the older ones. Others know much more, but the sides of the rockers may have worn some, since the top end was visibly dry. That is probably one on the better places to lose Al from parts I would think, as the arms have play anyway.
coffee2.gif
 
I keep seeing posts here and on other forums where people experience problems when using a non-oem oil filter. Fact or fiction I sure don`t know,but maybe to play it safe you should stick with Honda oem oil filters.
 
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