Fine Particles in Oil

[baddrummerboyy]

I have a 2009 Honda Civic Si. On my most recent oil change interval I used 10w-30 Royal Purple with a Royal Purple 10-2867 oil filter. I was about 2,780 miles into the oil change interval when a oil light came on. I checked the oil level, which was fine. I looked into the oil fill hole and I noticed no oil on the top valve train, which abnormal. I drove around some more and I still noticed no oil on the top valve train.

I did an oil change instantly with Royal Purple product again. After the oil change, I looked into oil fill hole for the next few days and all my valve train had oil on it as usual. I even removed the valve cover to see if any damage was caused by the lack of oil, but everything seem fine. I am fortunate that I caught this early before any major damage could have happen.

I went out and drained the oil filter. I took a picture of the oil that came out of the oil filter.

Is it normal to have those fine particles in the oil?

As a side note.

I know both Royal Purple and Amsoil oil filter both use wire-back full synthetic media, which has the highest filtering efficiency.

I know Amsoil had a Technical Service Bulletin for Honda Civic with their oil filter. They are no longer recommending the use of their oil filter for Honda Civic anymore. It cause people to have oil check light and in some case caused oil starvation, which Amsoil had to pay in damages and repair.

Here is a link showing that Amsoil filter are no longer recommended for my car.
http://www.amsoil.com/mygarage/vehiclelookup.aspx?url2=2009+HONDA+CIVIC+Z

Here is the service bulletin for Honda
http://www.sinwal.com/data/TSB_FL-2010-04-01_OilFilter.pdf

Here is the service bulletin for Toyota.
https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techservicesbulletin/Filtration/TSB FL-2009-05-01 EaO Toyota.pdf

Maybe these Wire-backed full synthetic media has too high of a filtering efficiency where they clog up quickly and for some reason the by-pass valve is not able to provide adequate oil flow.

This seems to be the issue with Amsoil filters which has a similar design to Royal Purple.

 

[baddrummerboyy]

 

[baddrummerboyy]

I am in contact with Royal Purple and they have been great with answering my question and replying to me. They too want to know what the issue it.

I hope everything works out.

 

[garlicbreadman]

never seen anything like that and i have a similar engine of yours (k24a2)


are you sure its not debris that was left on the oil container?

The oil light goes on when there isn't enough pressure which is normally caused by low oil....so i don't know. was your dipstick on the top dot @ 2700 miles?

 

[baddrummerboyy]

Its not from the container. I wiped the container before I put any oil on it.

If I put the oil on my hand, I can still the metal particles.

The oil level was near the top dot when I checked it.

There must be a reason why amsoil stop recommend their oil filter for my car.

 

[Newtonville]

If you can cut the can cleanly,(without added hacksaw shavings, etc) have a look on the oil filter dirty side. The oil you poured out of the center hole should be clean, right, as that is the filtered side. Except, of course, if as you say it is bypassing. Dirty oil shouldn't make oil lightsgo on.

 

[1 SX]

Wow!, Thats alot of fine particles. even when my ford 3.8L engine was knocking like mad, i did not even have it that bad with metal particles. How many miles on the engine? I would maybe use a different oil filter, i feel as most of the fine glitter should of been caught by the filter.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Maybe these Wire-backed full synthetic media has too high of a filtering efficiency where they clog up quickly and for some reason the by-pass valve is not able to provide adequate oil flow.



Not really. The engines, in some cases, just produce too many insolubles for extended drains. You've got some other problem if the filter is plugging in
Filters like the EaO aren't necessarily "fine", per se~. They're long duration filters. The advanced media will do a better job over the span of usage than another filter, but people focus too much on that rating and not enough on how long their going to keep it in service; how many cold starts and warm up events its going to see. I wish Filter Guy was still around since he'd quote or paraphrase the protocol that's used to rate filters.

Effectively it comes down to a holding capacity that terminates at the rated level of efficiency. The nominal rating is much more indicative of out of the box performance.

 

[synthetic_crazy]

You might have starved the top of the engine of oil by not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda. If the engine was starved of oil, then there was nothing to come between the moving parts and hence the particles you see. Honda engines, as I have read, have very tight tolerances and as such require a thin oil for proper lubrication. Try a 5w-20 next time and see if the particles are still present.

 

[baddrummerboyy]

So I am guessing these fine particles are not normal.

 

[Newtonville]

Lot of fine particles only when engine is new. I just cut the original filter on my 07 toyota, some number of metal flakes on the dirty side, but nothing near like you show. Isn't the oil required to be SM? That shouldn't matter though, and neither should 10-30 in CA summer. Or anywhere really.

I think you have somewhat shown, and it is an important issue, that engineering a filter that is in the full flow oil circuit just before the bearings, is not an easy thing to do. Makes me want to stick with lesser or OE tested filters, and not get so fancy. It really does appear your engine starved for oil and not so good things happened.

 

[addyguy]

I'd want to try and flush anything like that out of my engine - I'd grab some cheap filters and cheap oil, and do a couple of 1-2k OCI's, and check the oil to see if you still get glitter in it.

How much total mileage on the car? What are your driving habits?

 

[K20FA5]

Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
You might have starved the top of the engine of oil by not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda. If the engine was starved of oil, then there was nothing to come between the moving parts and hence the particles you see. Honda engines, as I have read, have very tight tolerances and as such require a thin oil for proper lubrication. Try a 5w-20 next time and see if the particles are still present.


No 5w-20 in the K20 engines. These spec 5w-30.

 

[baddrummerboyy]

I have 30,000 miles. The car is mostly driving on highway but on the on ramps I do WOT.

 

[addyguy]

Well past break-in, you shouldn't have 'glitter' in your oil.

How is oil consumption?

 

[Newtonville]

Baldwin and Wix I have stayed away from mainly because the nominal rating in microns seems sort of high. On the other hand I also respect their heritage and long years of experience. Now I think I will revisit this and put more weight to the experience factor.

 

[garlicbreadman]

if you consult the dealership, do not mention you used Royal purple. Your car calls for SM oil, not SL

 

[mechtech2]

The particulate matter was from the parts that did not get oil, or were severely starved.
The filter seems to have blocked flow and caused damage.

Even though the car runs now, there may be severe damage that took thousands of miles of life and performance away.

 

[440Magnum]

To quote Dire Straits, 'warning lights are flashing down in Quality Control....'

You had an "incident" that dropped your oil pressure to below idiot light threshold, cause unknown- BAD

You observed no oil at the top-end, cause unknown- BAD

Now you have shavings in the oil on the clean side of the filter- BAD, even though oil pressure seems to have been restored.

I'd say that some permanent damage has been done, and the cause is completely unknown at this point. If the filter did go into bypass... why? Was it a media failure (collapse) that blocked it? Or was it media loading (meaning that the filter basically plugged up) which would mean that something in the engine is shedding a lot, or else you're getting a ton of insolubles for some other reason. What is the ACTUAL oil pressure? Oil pump failure that generates just enough pressure to keep the idiot light off with a brand new filter, but couldn't push oil through a partially used filter? A look inside that used filter plus putting on a real oil pressure gauge would add a lot of information, I think.

Whatever it is, I wouldn't trust this vehicle further than my ability to walk until I KNOW what caused this whole sequence of events.

 

[3311]

I wouldn't open the filter myself. I would find a qualified, disinterested 3rd party to do it so that if it is found to be defective and to have caused major engine wear and you have a legal case.