Fine Particles in Oil

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Nothing like a good old oil pressure gauge with a pointer and some numbers. Who knows how low and how long the pressure was before the oil light "lit." My car doesn't even have a temperature gauge. Going to look into getting something. In any case it is safe to assume the engine here is broken in. Engines are tough, hope everything back to normal now.
 
The pictures really make it look like there is stuff all over the pan and the oil is just making it more visible..... As you can see the same "grit" all over the pan in the areas not covered in oil.....
 
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
You might have starved the top of the engine of oil by not using a 5w-20 as specified by Honda. If the engine was starved of oil, then there was nothing to come between the moving parts and hence the particles you see. Honda engines, as I have read, have very tight tolerances and as such require a thin oil for proper lubrication. Try a 5w-20 next time and see if the particles are still present.


+1

Some engines are just the opposite.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The pictures really make it look like there is stuff all over the pan and the oil is just making it more visible..... As you can see the same "grit" all over the pan in the areas not covered in oil.....


That’s just the reflection from the flash. If you see it in person there is big difference between the particles and the uneven surface of the container.

You guys have me all worried now. I will wait on Royal Purple response.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
To quote Dire Straits, 'warning lights are flashing down in Quality Control....'

You had an "incident" that dropped your oil pressure to below idiot light threshold, cause unknown- BAD

You observed no oil at the top-end, cause unknown- BAD

Now you have shavings in the oil on the clean side of the filter- BAD, even though oil pressure seems to have been restored.

I'd say that some permanent damage has been done, and the cause is completely unknown at this point. If the filter did go into bypass... why? Was it a media failure (collapse) that blocked it? Or was it media loading (meaning that the filter basically plugged up) which would mean that something in the engine is shedding a lot, or else you're getting a ton of insolubles for some other reason. What is the ACTUAL oil pressure? Oil pump failure that generates just enough pressure to keep the idiot light off with a brand new filter, but couldn't push oil through a partially used filter? A look inside that used filter plus putting on a real oil pressure gauge would add a lot of information, I think.

Whatever it is, I wouldn't trust this vehicle further than my ability to walk until I KNOW what caused this whole sequence of events.


This is the best advice here. You don't see that much metal without some damage being done, likely permanent damage. Here are some other things to check.

1) Double check the part number of the filter you installed and double check it's the right number for your application.

2) Find out whether your engine has an internal filter bypass or if the filter is supposed to have a bypass, then make sure the filter number you installed actually HAS a bypass (if required).

3) As was mentioned above, carefully cut the filter open (using a filter cutter), camera in hand showing all aspects of the dissection, and get the filter cut open with a filter cutter. Or you might contact Amsoil first and get some direction there.

4) You have some engine diagnostics to do to determine the source of all that metal. These may entail partial engine disassembly.

There are lots of possible scenario. It seems unlikely the filter could have plugged in only 2700 miles, so my money is on a sudden engine component failure. Even so, the bypass (whether engine or filter located) should have prevented a stoppage of lube flow. To protect yourself in case it's a product failure (car or filter) , tread carefully and document everything. Good luck on all this and I hope you'll keep us informed.
 
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Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The pictures really make it look like there is stuff all over the pan and the oil is just making it more visible..... As you can see the same "grit" all over the pan in the areas not covered in oil.....


That’s just the reflection from the flash. If you see it in person there is big difference between the particles and the uneven surface of the container.

You guys have me all worried now. I will wait on Royal Purple response.


Get that RP [censored] out of your Civic Si and go with another 5W-20.

In the meantime, use a DIFFERENT filter (Why not Purolator?) and, oh, "Edge" from Castrol, and see if the car makes any noises.

Maybe it was just a freak thing. I had some very very low oil in my car sometimes, where half the amount that was supposed to be in there came out.. after an Mos2 application. Weird, and oil was rust color, due to Moly.. but it still runs, and its not messed up.
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Report back.

thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
To quote Dire Straits, 'warning lights are flashing down in Quality Control....'

You had an "incident" that dropped your oil pressure to below idiot light threshold, cause unknown- BAD

You observed no oil at the top-end, cause unknown- BAD

Now you have shavings in the oil on the clean side of the filter- BAD, even though oil pressure seems to have been restored.

I'd say that some permanent damage has been done, and the cause is completely unknown at this point. If the filter did go into bypass... why? Was it a media failure (collapse) that blocked it? Or was it media loading (meaning that the filter basically plugged up) which would mean that something in the engine is shedding a lot, or else you're getting a ton of insolubles for some other reason. What is the ACTUAL oil pressure? Oil pump failure that generates just enough pressure to keep the idiot light off with a brand new filter, but couldn't push oil through a partially used filter? A look inside that used filter plus putting on a real oil pressure gauge would add a lot of information, I think.

Whatever it is, I wouldn't trust this vehicle further than my ability to walk until I KNOW what caused this whole sequence of events.


This is the best advice here. You don't see that much metal without some damage being done, likely permanent damage. Here are some other things to check.

1) Double check the part number of the filter you installed and double check it's the right number for your application.

2) Find out whether your engine has an internal filter bypass or if the filter is supposed to have a bypass, then make sure the filter number you installed actually HAS a bypass (if required).

3) As was mentioned above, carefully cut the filter open (using a filter cutter), camera in hand showing all aspects of the dissection, and get the filter cut open with a filter cutter. Or you might contact Amsoil first and get some direction there.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
To quote Dire Straits, 'warning lights are flashing down in Quality Control....'

You had an "incident" that dropped your oil pressure to below idiot light threshold, cause unknown- BAD

You observed no oil at the top-end, cause unknown- BAD

Now you have shavings in the oil on the clean side of the filter- BAD, even though oil pressure seems to have been restored.

I'd say that some permanent damage has been done, and the cause is completely unknown at this point. If the filter did go into bypass... why? Was it a media failure (collapse) that blocked it? Or was it media loading (meaning that the filter basically plugged up) which would mean that something in the engine is shedding a lot, or else you're getting a ton of insolubles for some other reason. What is the ACTUAL oil pressure? Oil pump failure that generates just enough pressure to keep the idiot light off with a brand new filter, but couldn't push oil through a partially used filter? A look inside that used filter plus putting on a real oil pressure gauge would add a lot of information, I think.

Whatever it is, I wouldn't trust this vehicle further than my ability to walk until I KNOW what caused this whole sequence of events.


This is the best advice here. You don't see that much metal without some damage being done, likely permanent damage. Here are some other things to check.

1) Double check the part number of the filter you installed and double check it's the right number for your application.

2) Find out whether your engine has an internal filter bypass or if the filter is supposed to have a bypass, then make sure the filter number you installed actually HAS a bypass (if required).

3) As was mentioned above, carefully cut the filter open (using a filter cutter), camera in hand showing all aspects of the dissection, and get the filter cut open with a filter cutter. Or you might contact Amsoil first and get some direction there.

4) You have some engine diagnostics to do to determine the source of all that metal. These may entail partial engine disassembly.

There are lots of possible scenario. It seems unlikely the filter could have plugged in only 2700 miles, so my money is on a sudden engine component failure. Even so, the bypass (whether engine or filter located) should have prevented a stoppage of lube flow. To protect yourself in case it's a product failure (car or filter) , tread carefully and document everything. Good luck on all this and I hope you'll keep us informed.


I wouldn't do #3. Let me repost: I wouldn't open the filter myself. I would find a qualified, disinterested 3rd party to do it so that if it is found to be defective and to have caused major engine wear and you have a legal case.
 
They probably won't "see" anything and then your SOL.
 
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I`ll put in my 2 cents here. The weight of the oil nor the brand of the oil was the problem. People on the other side of the world run dino 20W50 in these cars and they run forever. There`s a problem here that goes well beyond what amateur oil chat forum fans like most of us here can solve. Maybe "something" got into an oil passage and momentarily clogged something. If you had *no* oil whatsoever going to the upper valvetrain/camshaft area you`d be able to hear the ticking/clacking a mile away. Did you have any valvetrain noise while this was going on?
 
I think I would have a third party inspect the oil filter as suggested. This makes me a little worried as I just purchased a 5 gallon Royal Purple 5W-30 pail of oil to use for 2 OCI (For 2 cars).

JGR
 
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Originally Posted By: JGR
I think I would have a third party inspect the oil filter as suggested. This makes me a little worried as I just purchased a 5 gallon Royal Purple 5W-30 pail of oil to use for 2 OCI (For 2 cars).

JGR


Royal Purple oil is fine, its the filter that is the problem for me.
 
I forget to add, that the internals of the filter rattles a lot. You can hear a lot of clunking when you move the filter around. That is why I believe I got a defective filter.
 
Originally Posted By: baddrummerboyy
I forget to add, that the internals of the filter rattles a lot. You can hear a lot of clunking when you move the filter around. That is why I believe I got a defective filter.
Did it clunk before you put it on?
 
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Nope it did not. I have a brand new royal purple filter and it doesn't rattle.

I know Royal Purple filter is made by champion lab.
 
The oil looks like the oil in some small engines I've had after the first five minutes of running. I don't know what happened, but I would change the oil again and then a few more times with only a several miles between changes to get as much of the particles out as possible. Clearly the top end staved for, but from what you described it gets plenty of oil now. I guess you could bring it to the dealer, but if its running fine I doubt they will do anything. I'm sure its not the oil as RP is a fine oil and is API licensed, but I wouldn't reuse it again simply because I would be changing the oil a lot for the next couple of months and that would be expensive.

There have been people who have had their cars serviced at quick lube places only to drive out with no oil or the oil plug falls out down the road or the oil filter leaks. Those those who caught the ploblem and shut the engine off, many of those cars have done fine. So I hope yours does the same.
 
I would follow the sage advice of having a 3rd party open the filter. I would be hesitant to do it myself or send it to RP. Also you need to qualify what type of damage has been done to the engine. Just because it is running now does not mean it will be in 5k or whenever.

Would hate to see your issue dismissed by manufacturer (RP or Champ)-whomever, as you need to document the problem with the filter and show data 'measurements' of damage done to engine. Pictures of flecks in oil will not do it unfortunately.

Take all the steps you can to document.
 
I would contact RP and demand that you send the filter to a third party that both you and RP agree upon. Then the result of the cut open filter will be fair and impartial to you and RP.
 
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley

Get that RP [censored] out of your Civic Si and go with another 5W-20.


His engine SPECIFIES 5w-30 or 10w-30 oils.
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