"Experts" choose 9mm over .45 ACP? Really?

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Originally Posted By: dnewton3

For me, the "best" option is a round I can put on target with great accuracy under stress, while providing a desired effect of expansion and penetration, overcoming any potential intermediate obstacles, while not striking the person behind the person I'm shooting at. The ammo industry is now able to get me ever closer to that desired state. As long as I do my part in proper selection.



Thank You !! You have hit the nail on the head. The most important weapon is the mindset, not the choice of gun. When the crisis happens, you're going to default to the lowest level of your training (or lack of it).

The 9m/m just allows more holes, more leaking, faster loss of blood and blood pressure and a better chance of the perp assuming room temperature.
 
As someone stated before, who'd a knew there were so many experts?
I'm not one of them. I was cop for years in Jersey City, NJ. The State issued us
S&W model 66 combat magnums with full .357 Winchester Silvertip HPs.Although qualifications and firearms training even while in the NJSP Academy we shot .38 Special wadcutters. Didn't think about it much then. Kind of disturbing when I think about it now.
I have a 1911 and I love shooting it. But it's a good sized, heavy gun.
I used to carry a .38 Colt Detectives Special off duty and still carry a Taurus M85UL on occasion but when it's all said and done I like my 9mm guns and my little Bersa thunder. 380. If you can't get the job done...in the almost nonexistent chance that almost everyone on this forum will never find themselves in...with a.38 or a 9mm or even a .380 you are in way over your head anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: Toros
but when it's all said and done I like my 9mm guns and my little Bersa thunder. 380. If you can't get the job done...in the almost nonexistent chance that almost everyone on this forum will never find themselves in...with a.38 or a 9mm or even a .380 you are in way over your head anyway.

Exactly..but as we know many that carry feel they need mega rounds of something larger than a .380. when they are not sufficiently trained for this eventuality. I have a lesson every month from a guy that trains police trainers...a former swat team leader. He will tell you just what you stated.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: 02SE
I hope I never need to test the stopping power of my handgun. But I have the caliber I do, based on the real-life experiences of my Police Officer friend. He did carry a Sig 9mm, and was involved in an ultimately fatal shooting. Despite well-placed shots, the actor DID NOT stop in a timely manner. After that experience, he switched to .45ACP.
When was this and what was the ammunition used?


It was in the early 90's. I don't recall what specific ammunition he was using, but I do know it was a round approved by his Police Department. As every aspect of the shooting was very thoroughly investigated. He was cleared by both Police and Citizen review boards.
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: 02SE
I hope I never need to test the stopping power of my handgun. But I have the caliber I do, based on the real-life experiences of my Police Officer friend. He did carry a Sig 9mm, and was involved in an ultimately fatal shooting. Despite well-placed shots, the actor DID NOT stop in a timely manner. After that experience, he switched to .45ACP.
When was this and what was the ammunition used?
It was in the early 90's. I don't recall what specific ammunition he was using, but I do know it was a round approved by his Police Department. As every aspect of the shooting was very thoroughly investigated. He was cleared by both Police and Citizen review boards.
Early 90's ammunition does not compare to current ammunition in any shape or fashion. Many variables to each and every incident and there will always be a "what if", however, in today's world, the differences between the performance of ammunition is not the deciding factor. 9MM = .40S&W = .357SIG = .45ACP; plenty of tests out there to quantify that statement.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: 02SE
I hope I never need to test the stopping power of my handgun. But I have the caliber I do, based on the real-life experiences of my Police Officer friend. He did carry a Sig 9mm, and was involved in an ultimately fatal shooting. Despite well-placed shots, the actor DID NOT stop in a timely manner. After that experience, he switched to .45ACP.
When was this and what was the ammunition used?
It was in the early 90's. I don't recall what specific ammunition he was using, but I do know it was a round approved by his Police Department. As every aspect of the shooting was very thoroughly investigated. He was cleared by both Police and Citizen review boards.
Early 90's ammunition does not compare to current ammunition in any shape or fashion. Many variables to each and every incident and there will always be a "what if", however, in today's world, the differences between the performance of ammunition is not the deciding factor. 9MM = .40S&W = .357SIG = .45ACP; plenty of tests out there to quantify that statement.


Be that as it may or may not, the rounds that hit the suspect in vital areas, did not stop him in a timely manner.

I have a recollection of buying Remington Golden Saber +P 124 gr JHP from him, for a 9mm I had at the time of that shooting. So most likely that was the round he carried.
 
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Originally Posted By: Fastcompany
I actually stopped carrying my Beretta 9mm. Had too many cops ask to see my permit. Just a hassle. Got myself a little 380 auto that I tuck it in the pants holster. I know it's tiny but all I can say is I wouldn't want to get shot by it. And besides I got shotguns with buckshot in the house so a pistol doesn't even come into play there. As soon as someone hears a shotgun get pumped I doubt they would stick around to see someone use it lol.
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amen
 
Originally Posted By: Toros
As someone stated before, who'd a knew there were so many experts?
I'm not one of them. I was cop for years in Jersey City, NJ. The State issued us
S&W model 66 combat magnums with full .357 Winchester Silvertip HPs.Although qualifications and firearms training even while in the NJSP Academy we shot .38 Special wadcutters. Didn't think about it much then. Kind of disturbing when I think about it now.
I have a 1911 and I love shooting it. But it's a good sized, heavy gun.
I used to carry a .38 Colt Detectives Special off duty and still carry a Taurus M85UL on occasion but when it's all said and done I like my 9mm guns and my little Bersa thunder. 380. If you can't get the job done...in the almost nonexistent chance that almost everyone on this forum will never find themselves in...with a.38 or a 9mm or even a .380 you are in way over your head anyway.
good write up,like your last statement,,yes , men have huge egos,,none of us are really ready for a gun fight,,,we are not trained to think that way..imho
 
Originally Posted By: funflyer
I called my "expert" to ask him what he thought and he said to not listen to the experts
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Here he is and he's so good that he only carries one bullet.
2edaa9i.jpg

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Originally Posted By: cb_13
Originally Posted By: Win
Posted many times before: now deceased client shot with a 9mm in the thigh at close range, did not take him out of the fight, did not bother to go to the hospital until hours later, and then only because he could not get the wound to stop bleeding.

Shot with a .45 hollow point in the forearm at close range put him on the ground right then and there, had to be paddled three times on the way to hospital, permanently mangled his forearm, bullet ripped around in his chest after mangling his arm but missed vital blood vessels, pieces of the bullet festered out over a long period of time from his shoulder all the way to his scrotum.

That said, I typically carry a .32 because I don't have a pocket .45, and plan to run away like a screaming Nancy Boy if given half the chance.



For years more people were shot and killed with a .22 than any other caliber. That's almost as relevant as the two examples you gave.
funny, our range instructor said almost the same thing when we were getting our carry permits,,,run away if you can...
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Early 90's ammunition does not compare to current ammunition in any shape or fashion. Many variables to each and every incident and there will always be a "what if", however, in today's world, the differences between the performance of ammunition is not the deciding factor. 9MM = .40S&W = .357SIG = .45ACP; plenty of tests out there to quantify that statement.
Be that as it may or may not, the rounds that hit the suspect in vital areas, did not stop him in a timely manner. I have a recollection of buying Remington Golden Saber +P 124 gr JHP from him, for a 9mm I had at the time of that shooting. So most likely that was the round he carried.
The point being as someone else posted, there is tendency to use old data as a decision making or a validation point of why one caliber is better than another. If memory serves that particular bullet was infamous for jacket separation until Remington debuted a bonded version of that bullet and I do not think that happened in the 90s.
 
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Early 90's ammunition does not compare to current ammunition in any shape or fashion. Many variables to each and every incident and there will always be a "what if", however, in today's world, the differences between the performance of ammunition is not the deciding factor. 9MM = .40S&W = .357SIG = .45ACP; plenty of tests out there to quantify that statement.


Be that as it may or may not, the rounds that hit the suspect in vital areas, did not stop him in a timely manner.




I firmly believe that it's not so much the round (given that most are fairly effective at expansion and dumping their energy) as it is the person. Some people are closer to animals than human. Look at that guy in the link posted by 901Memphis... He took 22 rounds of .40 Winchester SXT, 17 of which were center mass before he stopped. NOT BEFORE HE DIED, but before he stopped. He lived another 4 minutes after the last round was fired. Also per the article- he wasn't hopped up on any drugs! Just a small amount of alcohol. Another man took 5 or 6 rounds of .38 when he broke into a woman's house. All shots hit critical areas (neck and organs). He ended up on the floor, but was able to get back up, leave the house (from the 2nd floor) and drive off, before he passed out. Now, there are plenty of others that could likely be stopped with a BB gun... ok maybe not, but could easily be stopped by 1 or 2 non critical hits. Plenty of reports out there that show both cases. Makes me think that a person's inner drive plays a part.


My suspicions are the person referenced in Win's post where a guy was shot in the leg by 9mm and seemingly unfazed, but was dropped to the ground and pretty much incapacitated by a .45 to the forearm makes me think that he got hit in some sort of nerve, which overloaded his CNS. Or perhaps it's due to the size or mass of the limb that was hit? I'm not sure that I'm ready to believe that there is THAT much of a difference, especially when muzzle energy is similar. Now if we're talking pistol round vs. rifle round, then all bets are off IMO.
 
If you heard it here, it's probably true,, I do have some cake and ice cream I can email to you...lol
 
Shot placement > Caliber

Rob Leatham has a great training video where he demonstrates a simple test you can perform to see which caliber YOU can control the best in rapid fire, high pressure situations. If you rapidly shoot 10rds of 9mm within a 6" group at 10yrs, but shoot a .45acp within a 12" group at the same distance, then the 9mm would be preferred for you. Not to say you couldn't train to be more proficient with the .45acp and close the gap, but until you do, a 12" grouping could mean quite a few misses in a defensive situation... possibly rendering the larger caliber irrelevant.
 
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Here's what my "expert" said...

An experienced door-kicker put it to me this way:

There are three "pathways" to make an opponent stop:
1. Psychological (he decides to quit)
2. Cardiopulmonary (supply of oxygenated blood stops reaching the brain/muscles in quantities needed for him to continue)
3. Central Nervous System (brain is shut off, or shut off from control of muscles)

The body is made up of "Timers" and "Switches".
A hit on a timer starts the timer. A hit on a switch, flips the switch.

The organs of the cardiovascular system (heart, lungs) are Timers.
The brain and spinal cord are Switches.

Here are some scenarios I have made up to try and illustrate:

Scenario 1 (Psychological) : Tough guy with a knife is coming towards me. I pull a gun and tell him to drop the knife and get on the ground. He immediately complies, saying, "Don't shoot me bro!"

Scenario 2 (Cardiopulmonary): Tough guy with a knife is coming towards me. I pull a gun and tell him to drop the knife and get on the ground. He says, " [censored] You!" and starts to close the distance. I fire two shots into his chest. The first one destroys his heart, the second tears through his liver but he is still on his feet and moving towards me. The timers have started. With CNS and muscles intact, he has the potential to be an aggressive threat until he "bleeds out" or quits psychologically. He may have only 15-30 seconds (?) of fight left, but in some scenarios that's enough to inflict real damage on the good guys.

Scenario 3 (CNS): As I move left to gain distance from the knife attacker, my partner "hits the switch" with a neck shot that severs the spinal cord. The attacker drops instantly, having lost all muscle control and motor function below the neck.

When explained to me, the scenarios were room-clearing situations. Imagine an entry team entering a room with multiple hostiles armed with rifles. The bottom line is you want hits on "switches". Bad guys with rifles, in the fight, are still lethal threats, even if they have fatal hits, but are on active timers...

I think he would say, "Give me any caliber, any ammo, and I'll be flipping switches, not just starting timers. The fastest way to stop a threat is to flip a switch."

Does framing the issue in this way change the way you think about caliber and "stopping power"? It did for me.
 
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The switches are very hard to hit on a live target.

It may be his way of looking at a tactical situation- however, consistent "switch" hits require incredible training. Thousands of rounds a week in live fire against moving targets.

Realistic if you're SOF...

The rest of us, the mere mortals, are better off with center mass, even if it is just a timer...you're absolutely delusional if you think you're going to be making headshots in your first firefight or defensive gun use. The adrenaline alone will degrade your fine motor skills, which affects trigger control and aim.

So, stick with center mass.

You're not a highly trained, room-clearing SWAT or SOF operator. So, don't think like one.
 
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
T

You're not a highly trained, room-clearing SWAT or SOF operator. So, don't think like one.

Quoted for truth
Think survival (escape route/"duck and cover")
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
....

My suspicions are the person referenced in Win's post where a guy was shot in the leg by 9mm and seemingly unfazed, but was dropped to the ground and pretty much incapacitated by a .45 to the forearm makes me think that he got hit in some sort of nerve, which overloaded his CNS. Or perhaps it's due to the size or mass of the limb that was hit? I'm not sure that I'm ready to believe that there is THAT much of a difference, especially when muzzle energy is similar. Now if we're talking pistol round vs. rifle round, then all bets are off IMO.


I no longer have the medical records. Best I recall, he had seven or eight screws holding his forearm together, and it took a couple of surgeries to piece all that together. I do still have the transcription of my cryptic notes taken from testimony in the course of a subsequent legal proceeding. Relevant parts:

......

knew was going to get shot - assumed a defensive posture
first entry was left forearm
went through elbow
only exit was left upper arm between elbow and shoulder
second entry - left upper chest
broke ribs - doesn't recall number
went laterally across chest, penetrated both lungs
richocheted off right hand side rib cage
said it felt like it was bouncing around in his chest (“ripping him up from the inside”)
hydro shock bullet
Jacketed hollow point bullet
Jacket and the bullet separated
bullet lodged in liver where it still remains
pieces of jacket went
Couple in back about area of RIGHT shoulder blade - festered out
one in right arm pit - festered out
one in scrotum - piece of copper festered out

left hand - cant fully open his hand
Hand is permanently deformed)
Can close hand into fist, but has no grip strength
hand is numb, feels like it is asleep all the time
diminshed sensitivity - can injure himself, and not feel it
LEFT wrist - limited flexion of wrist and movement crimps his fingers
cannot hold anything at all if it involves movement of wrist
LEFT forearm - numb, feels dead on outside like it is asleep, tingly
Limited rotation of forearm, elbow will lock up when he tried to rotate it
Describes where metal pins are holding forearm together
cannot extend elbow
cannot straighten it out and extend it striaght out
elbow cannot support weight of arm

.........

I don't know that much about the 9mm shot. I know it was a close range in and out in the thigh. Didn't take him out of the fight, and if he could have gotten the wound to stop bleeding on his own, he wouldn't have sought medical care.

The weapon was a 1911, don't recall the brand. Seems like it was his own gun that shot him, but I don't have that in my notes.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
The rest of us, the mere mortals, are better off with center mass, even if it is just a timer...you're absolutely delusional if you think you're going to be making headshots in your first firefight or defensive gun use. The adrenaline alone will degrade your fine motor skills, which affects trigger control and aim.

So, stick with center mass.

I don't know if current training involves at least trying two at centre of mass and one to the head. There certainly is something to be said for centre of mass, as you indicate. Missing wildly certainly isn't effective.
 
Originally Posted By: Toros
The State issued us S&W model 66 combat magnums with full .357 Winchester Silvertip HPs. Although qualifications and firearms training even while in the NJSP Academy we shot .38 Special wadcutters. Didn't think about it much then. Kind of disturbing when I think about it now. I have a 1911 and I love shooting it. But it's a good sized, heavy gun. I used to carry a .38 Colt Detectives Special off duty and still carry a Taurus M85UL on occasion but when it's all said and done I like my 9mm guns and my little Bersa thunder. 380. If you can't get the job done...in the almost nonexistent chance that almost everyone on this forum will never find themselves in...with a.38 or a 9mm or even a .380 you are in way over your head anyway.



I remember when the 'newly released' S&W Model 66 was adopted and issued by our agency. It was a great relief to exchange a 5" Colt Trooper for the lighter and smoother shooting M66. Our .357 duty carry load went from the Winchester 158 LSWC to the Federal 125 gr JHP - and yet we still qualified with .38 Special wadcutters until about 1979. Lots of litigation apparently changed policy on that. Shooting for score with full power magnum rounds was quite interesting.
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Wheelguns gave way to the Beretta 9m/m and eventually the Glock.

Off duty gun was either a 3" S&W M65 or 2" S&W M60(that I still have) and eventually the baby Glock after they were ok'd. Still carry the Model 60.
 
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