New Shotgun Day - Mossberg 590A1 Retrograde!

65F64E21-B994-46C1-875B-1CF236DBD75D.webp


Just got this today. I went with the regular 590 retrograde. Didn’t think a metal trigger and thicker barrel were worth the few hundred bucks more. YMMV. I’m an 870 armorer and am use to that gun. I have been impressed with the Mossberg so far. Double extractors was a nice surprise. All I’ve done is clean it but, while it is a robust shotgun, I’ll give ease of field stripping to the 870. Taking it to shoot tomorrow.
 
john_pifer said:
I’m curious what makes you say that the Benelli M2 or Beretta 1301 models are “far better tactical shotguns”, beyond the obvious point that they’re semi-automatic.

Are they more accurate? More reliable? More durable?

To use a cliche that someone else here used recently, books have been written on the subject of pump vs semi-automatic shotguns for defensive use.

Im certainly no expert on shotguns - just trying to learn.
Click to expand...
I own an older 870 remington from before they cheapened the parts. But for any serious use an autoloader is more reliable.. its not just the action. I shoot trap and clays and an autoloader works for new shooters or old. New folks with pumps at times short stroke them and those shots fail. In serious use that is not good.

Over under shotguns and auto loaders are way reliable. But two shot capacity for defense is not smart.
My beretta A 400 with blink and recoil reduction internal in two ways allows you to shoot 200 high brass loads without fatigue. A novice shooter can insert a couple rounds and press the load button much easier than a pump setup. I teach clays and handgun skills and the auto shotgun is a much better system.
 
john_pifer said:
If you saw my recent thread about the Mossberg Mariner Marinecote you knew I was looking at shotguns.

Well, seeing that Mariner on sale spurred me into doing some research into what else was available, and by the time I got ready to buy, Sportsman’s Warehouse was all sold out.

But after doing some research, I found that what I really wanted was a 590A1 anyway (the ones that Sportsman’s Warehouse had on sale were the standard 590).

If you’re not familiar, the 590A1 differs from the standard Mossberg 590 in that it has a heavy-walled barrel, metal trigger guard and safety, Parkerized finish instead of matte blueing, and some people claim that the action of the trigger is better.

One article I read even claimed that the heavier barrel actually results in a tighter pattern, due to different barrel harmonics, despite the fact that it’s a cylinder bore shotgun (no choke). And that may even be the reason behind the heavy barrel, as part of the MIL-S-3443G spec that this gun was made for defines how tight the pattern has to be at a certain distance from the muzzle (see below).

Oh, and it has a bayonet lug. And yes, I’ll definitely be getting a bayonet for it! (How could you not, right?!)

But, the biggest thing is that the “A1” version of the Mossberg 590 is supposedly the only shotgun to have officially passed the so-called MIL-S-3443G specification, created to define the characteristics desired in a military fighting shotgun.

I found the “cliffnotes” version posted on another forum. Theres more to it than this; I found the complete downloadable specs, but it’s 33 pages. You can find it easily if interested.

Here’s the abbreviated spec:

TARGETING AND ACCURACY (PATTERN):

At a range of 40 yards (+/- one foot) aim shall be taken at the center of a pattern sheet not less than 40 nor more than 60 inches square. The shot pattern shall be such that not less than 33 1/3 per cent of the shot pellets shall be within or cut the edge of a 30-inch diameter circle for accuracy (pattern), drawn entirely on the pattern sheet so as to enclose the most shot. Five patterns shall be fired from each gun and the average must be as specified. The guns shall be hand held during firing, or mounted in a fixture that simulates hand firing. Ammunition shall be as specified in 3.17.3.

ENDURANCE TEST (LOT ACCEPTANCE)

Shotguns shall be capable of withstanding the firing of 3,000 rounds with no unserviceable or broken parts and no more than three (3) malfunctions using standard commercial 12-gauge, 2 3/4 inch, 00 buckshot (9 pellets), maximum load shells. Type I shotguns shall include M7 bayonet and scabbard as specified in 3.3.1.a.

ROUGH HANDLING

After completion of the performance test, three weapons shall be chosen and subjected to the rough handling test. Each weapon will have the safety "on", a primed cartridge case in the chamber, and a fully loaded magazine. One weapon shall be conditioned at -20 degrees F, one at ambient, and one at +120 degrees F for a minimum of four hours prior to the test. The weapons shall be dropped a minimum of four feet (lowest point on the weapon to the drop surface) in each of the following five modes:

Butt end down

right side down

left side down

top side down

45 degree angle with verticle plane- butt end down

The drop surface shall be 85 + 5 Durometer (Shore A) rubber mat, one inch thick, backed by concrete. At the test conclusion the weapon must be safe and serviceable and the primed shell shall not have fired.


INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST:

Shotguns shall be tested for interchangeability of repair parts (see 3.18) by disassembling the shotguns and placing parts of each kind in the same container. The ten shotguns shall then be reassembled using repair parts taken at random from each container and subjected to the functioning test of 4.6.3 and the headspace test of 4.6.2.

HEAT SHIELD EFFECTIVENESS

Type I shotguns shall be tested for heat shield effectiveness (see 3.3.3.e). The shotgun and its ammunition shall be conditioned at 78 degrees +/- 8 degrees F for a minimum of four hours. Then 25 rounds of standard, commercial, 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inch, 00 buckshot (9 pellets) maximun load shells shall be fired in not more than 3 minutes (rate of fire is to be approximately 1 shot every 5 seconds). Immediately after completion of the firing, the temperature of representative ares of the heat shield shall be measured. No measurement shall exceed initial temperature plus 40 degrees F. Areas to be measured and measuring equipment used shall be approved by the Government representative. At the discretion of the contractor, this test may be performed in conjunction with the endurance test (4.6.5).

And, always having been a big admirer of firearms made of traditional wood and steel, when I saw the “Retrograde” model of the 590A1, which comes with walnut stock and “corncob” walnut forend grip, I decided that was the one I wanted.

View attachment 93188

I really like the Mariner version of the A1, also, and I like the “riot gun” look of the shorter barrel. But what made my decision in favor of the Retrograde was the fact that the Mariner Marinecote version of the 590 only comes with the 18.5” barrel instead of the 20” barrel, and mag capacity is only 6 instead of the 8 of the 20” barrel models.

I started looking around, and apparently the A1 Retrograde is one of the most highly desirable shotguns in the world.

A few days ago, I went to the websites of several online gun shops who had the Retrograde listed. Nobody had one, but they all offered to take your phone no or email, and they’d let you know when they got one.

Tuesday morning, KY Gun Co. got a shipment, and texted me around 11:00 that morning. But, because I work nights, I didn’t get the text until about 11:45, and all the ones they received had already been spoken for. Not a surprise - they had them listed for $779 - a good price that would seem to be well below what they’ve been going for.

We were leaving that day to head to the Memphis area to visit my mom, and it just so happened that a shop here, Guns and Ammo, had one of the 590A1 Retrograde models in stock with $869 on the sticker. Not a great price, but less than the $1000 and up that they’re going for on GunBroker. So I drove over with cash and offered $860, which was what the one from KY Gun Co. would have cost with tax. No dice - “what’s on the tag is what it is”. I said “let’s write it up”.

(BTW these used to go for substantially less during the Trump era - around $700 before tax is what I’ve read.)

Oh well. I’ve gotten a few smoking deals in the past. This wasn’t an exceptional deal, but not a horrible deal, either.

It was strange, as I drove back to my mom’s house, to think that one of my kids will own this one day! Getting old, LOL. Never used to have thoughts like that on the way home from the LGS!

Picked up a couple boxes of Federal Flite Control 2-3/4” 00 buckshot. Never know when you might need 9 rounds of 12GA, right?

Can’t wait to shoot it.

View attachment 93197View attachment 93198View attachment 93199
Click to expand...
Nice, congrats, got one years ago with the speed feed stock, they are cumbersome and heavy with full magazine and bayonet but doubtful anyone going to bother you LOL
 
I own 6 shotguns, all derivatives of the Mossberg 500\590.

I carried one in the service, sometimes, and was the first shotgun I ever shot. Haveing shot 10's of thousands of shells through the various styles of the 500, 590\A1\535 with no failures to function I think you made a great choice.

That being said, the only "failure" I have ever seen, is the wood stock cracking, near the grip.
 
Love the wood furniture. I bought my 590A in 1990 and carried it for 28 years in LE. TCarried in on patrol and as an investigator, taught classes with it and my eyes popped outta my head when I punched cloverleafs at 50 yards with the Federal Tru-Ball Slugs and did head shots at 15 yards with Federal Flite Control Buckshot. Still has the factory mag tube spring! The welds let go on the front of my heat shield so I just ditched it. Love my 590 and love the look of yours!
 
john_pifer said:
If you saw my recent thread about the Mossberg Mariner Marinecote you knew I was looking at shotguns.

Well, seeing that Mariner on sale spurred me into doing some research into what else was available, and by the time I got ready to buy, Sportsman’s Warehouse was all sold out.

But after doing some research, I found that what I really wanted was a 590A1 anyway (the ones that Sportsman’s Warehouse had on sale were the standard 590).

If you’re not familiar, the 590A1 differs from the standard Mossberg 590 in that it has a heavy-walled barrel, metal trigger guard and safety, Parkerized finish instead of matte blueing, and some people claim that the action of the trigger is better.

One article I read even claimed that the heavier barrel actually results in a tighter pattern, due to different barrel harmonics, despite the fact that it’s a cylinder bore shotgun (no choke). And that may even be the reason behind the heavy barrel, as part of the MIL-S-3443G spec that this gun was made for defines how tight the pattern has to be at a certain distance from the muzzle (see below).

Oh, and it has a bayonet lug. And yes, I’ll definitely be getting a bayonet for it! (How could you not, right?!)

But, the biggest thing is that the “A1” version of the Mossberg 590 is supposedly the only shotgun to have officially passed the so-called MIL-S-3443G specification, created to define the characteristics desired in a military fighting shotgun.

I found the “cliffnotes” version posted on another forum. Theres more to it than this; I found the complete downloadable specs, but it’s 33 pages. You can find it easily if interested.

Here’s the abbreviated spec:

TARGETING AND ACCURACY (PATTERN):

At a range of 40 yards (+/- one foot) aim shall be taken at the center of a pattern sheet not less than 40 nor more than 60 inches square. The shot pattern shall be such that not less than 33 1/3 per cent of the shot pellets shall be within or cut the edge of a 30-inch diameter circle for accuracy (pattern), drawn entirely on the pattern sheet so as to enclose the most shot. Five patterns shall be fired from each gun and the average must be as specified. The guns shall be hand held during firing, or mounted in a fixture that simulates hand firing. Ammunition shall be as specified in 3.17.3.

ENDURANCE TEST (LOT ACCEPTANCE)

Shotguns shall be capable of withstanding the firing of 3,000 rounds with no unserviceable or broken parts and no more than three (3) malfunctions using standard commercial 12-gauge, 2 3/4 inch, 00 buckshot (9 pellets), maximum load shells. Type I shotguns shall include M7 bayonet and scabbard as specified in 3.3.1.a.

ROUGH HANDLING

After completion of the performance test, three weapons shall be chosen and subjected to the rough handling test. Each weapon will have the safety "on", a primed cartridge case in the chamber, and a fully loaded magazine. One weapon shall be conditioned at -20 degrees F, one at ambient, and one at +120 degrees F for a minimum of four hours prior to the test. The weapons shall be dropped a minimum of four feet (lowest point on the weapon to the drop surface) in each of the following five modes:

Butt end down

right side down

left side down

top side down

45 degree angle with verticle plane- butt end down

The drop surface shall be 85 + 5 Durometer (Shore A) rubber mat, one inch thick, backed by concrete. At the test conclusion the weapon must be safe and serviceable and the primed shell shall not have fired.


INTERCHANGEABILITY TEST:

Shotguns shall be tested for interchangeability of repair parts (see 3.18) by disassembling the shotguns and placing parts of each kind in the same container. The ten shotguns shall then be reassembled using repair parts taken at random from each container and subjected to the functioning test of 4.6.3 and the headspace test of 4.6.2.

HEAT SHIELD EFFECTIVENESS

Type I shotguns shall be tested for heat shield effectiveness (see 3.3.3.e). The shotgun and its ammunition shall be conditioned at 78 degrees +/- 8 degrees F for a minimum of four hours. Then 25 rounds of standard, commercial, 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inch, 00 buckshot (9 pellets) maximun load shells shall be fired in not more than 3 minutes (rate of fire is to be approximately 1 shot every 5 seconds). Immediately after completion of the firing, the temperature of representative ares of the heat shield shall be measured. No measurement shall exceed initial temperature plus 40 degrees F. Areas to be measured and measuring equipment used shall be approved by the Government representative. At the discretion of the contractor, this test may be performed in conjunction with the endurance test (4.6.5).

And, always having been a big admirer of firearms made of traditional wood and steel, when I saw the “Retrograde” model of the 590A1, which comes with walnut stock and “corncob” walnut forend grip, I decided that was the one I wanted.

View attachment 93188

I really like the Mariner version of the A1, also, and I like the “riot gun” look of the shorter barrel. But what made my decision in favor of the Retrograde was the fact that the Mariner Marinecote version of the 590 only comes with the 18.5” barrel instead of the 20” barrel, and mag capacity is only 6 instead of the 8 of the 20” barrel models.

I started looking around, and apparently the A1 Retrograde is one of the most highly desirable shotguns in the world.

A few days ago, I went to the websites of several online gun shops who had the Retrograde listed. Nobody had one, but they all offered to take your phone no or email, and they’d let you know when they got one.

Tuesday morning, KY Gun Co. got a shipment, and texted me around 11:00 that morning. But, because I work nights, I didn’t get the text until about 11:45, and all the ones they received had already been spoken for. Not a surprise - they had them listed for $779 - a good price that would seem to be well below what they’ve been going for.

We were leaving that day to head to the Memphis area to visit my mom, and it just so happened that a shop here, Guns and Ammo, had one of the 590A1 Retrograde models in stock with $869 on the sticker. Not a great price, but less than the $1000 and up that they’re going for on GunBroker. So I drove over with cash and offered $860, which was what the one from KY Gun Co. would have cost with tax. No dice - “what’s on the tag is what it is”. I said “let’s write it up”.

(BTW these used to go for substantially less during the Trump era - around $700 before tax is what I’ve read.)

Oh well. I’ve gotten a few smoking deals in the past. This wasn’t an exceptional deal, but not a horrible deal, either.

It was strange, as I drove back to my mom’s house, to think that one of my kids will own this one day! Getting old, LOL. Never used to have thoughts like that on the way home from the LGS!

Picked up a couple boxes of Federal Flite Control 2-3/4” 00 buckshot. Never know when you might need 9 rounds of 12GA, right?

Can’t wait to shoot it.

View attachment 93197View attachment 93198View attachment 93199
Click to expand...
That is a seriously good looking shotgun. I want the 590S (I think that's it). It is from the factory set to use 1.75" shells. I like the idea of 13+1 defense rounds.
 
incognito_2u said:
Rack that bad boy and raise the short hairs of anyone that wishes to do you harm!
Click to expand...
For sure but I have had to correct many folks who say that the racking of a shotgun isn't intimidating. My 28.5 years of law enforcement showed me that the "chick chack-thoamp" of a 12 gauge being racked is universally feared. I saw it happen dozens of times. Hot headed folks chill out sooner. Mouthy people shut up sooner. Non-compliant people suddenly COMPLY! I don't know if it is the giant gapping hole of the muzzle or the fact that people are just afraid of the destructiveness of the 12 gauge.
Example #1: A younger officer on my shift had located 2 robbery suspects at a nightclub during the day and was calling for help. Said the suspects were non-compliant. He had ordered them down at gunpoint with a high dollar flat-topped AR that was "pimped out" to the max. The suspects would not prone out and were daring the officer to shoot them by lifting their shirts like they were grabbing a gun out of their waist bands. I pull up, hit the hidden button to my locking rack and come out with my 590, rack it really hard, and point it at the two while issuing street level profanity laced orders. INSTANT compliance! They proned out, shut up and gave no resistance after wards. The young officer asked "***, I got a .223 with a 80 round mag pointed at you and you @#$%ing around and Sarge pulls up and you do what you supposed to, whats up with that?". Guy looks at him and simply says "that @#$%ing shotgun don't play".

I got a Marine Reserve buddy that didn't talk much about his multiple deployments in the desert wars but he confirmed to me that the 12 gauge was equally feared in Iraq and Trashcanistan and they treasured their 590s(Reserve units hadn't got the Benelli's yet).
 
The argument which I've heard, and personally agree with, YMMV, is using racking a shotgun to scare off bad guys in a home invasion or similar situation when not within sight of the organ donors isn't a good plan. My plan, leave the house and contents to argue between organ donors and insurance company while maintaining family and greatest valuables in no breach room. The organ donors won't know what closed door we are behind nor what I may or may not have at my disposal. If I rack a shotgun I've told them where I am and what I have. So I'll wait until/if I am going to see them to inform and prepare them for their donation.
 
LDB said:
If I rack a shotgun I've told them where I am and what I have. So I'll wait until/if I am going to see them to inform and prepare them for their donation.
Click to expand...
I like your tip toeing around the actual verbiage. Good way to put it.

Most pump shotguns are not drop safe, typically. This is one and perhaps the main reason for the practice of chambering a shell when the need arises, as opposed to carrying chambered.

The movement of chambering a shell, and target acquisition can be done easily at the same time. Speed between a pump and semi auto are similar, while using the recoil and back on target time to rack a new shell.

I do not store my defensive shotgun with a round in the chamber. I store it unchambered with the trigger pulled, with one shell lite (7 in the tube) just in case I want a slug.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LDB
LDB said:
The argument which I've heard, and personally agree with, YMMV, is using racking a shotgun to scare off bad guys in a home invasion or similar situation when not within sight of the organ donors isn't a good plan. My plan, leave the house and contents to argue between organ donors and insurance company while maintaining family and greatest valuables in no breach room. The organ donors won't know what closed door we are behind nor what I may or may not have at my disposal. If I rack a shotgun I've told them where I am and what I have. So I'll wait until/if I am going to see them to inform and prepare them for their donation.
Click to expand...
To me - since I can only legally have 3 shells - “racking” just dropped me to 2 shells …
 
dkryan said:
Is that a Texas law………?
Click to expand...
For something that’s also used for hunting - all of my shotguns are.
I do have a riot gun - have not put shells in that thing in years.
We all sleep with a handgun within reach anyway …

A shotgun is good at the camp to leave by the door …
(Have a stable pocket it can sit in) …
 
4WD said:
For something that’s also used for hunting - all of my shotguns are.
I do have a riot gun - have not put shells in that thing in years.
We all sleep with a handgun within reach anyway …

A shotgun is good at the camp to leave by the door …
(Have a stable pocket it can sit in) …
Click to expand...
why not make one for "not hunting then"?
 
buck91 said:
Is it just me or are the Mossy‘s more of a PITA to reassemble after cleaning than the 870?
Click to expand...
They are for sure in comparison to the 870. But, after 25 years of shooting them to death, I can easily do it blindfolded. So I would say it is more of a disassembler issue than the gun.

They do come apart easier after you have racked the slide 5000 times.

It has more removable parts than the 870, 100% or them in fact, which is one reason it was chosen for military service.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
PCC vs Shotgun for home defense
4 5 6
Replies
101
Views
16K
football
jeremy2171
Commercial ammo in garands test resutls.
Replies
17
Views
2K
Nuclear_42
john_pifer
Mossberg 590 Mariner Marinecote 12GA 3" Pump Shotgun (20") - $589
Replies
7
Views
6K
nwjones18
I
  • Locked
Mossberg 590/590A1
Replies
11
Views
2K
INMY01TA
C
What do you think is the best "buy" in all new firearms?
2
Replies
35
Views
5K
Jim K
Back
Top Bottom