I really don't think the turbo knows what keeps its bearings seperated. There are too many turbo engines run with syn oil that if there were a problem it would be known.
Don't use synthetic in a turbo car!
- Thread starter BuickGN
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
If you look at the fatigue life bearing test in …
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
Wrong issue.
The problem with bearings in turbos in most automotive applications is coking, not spalling.
;
If you look at the fatigue life bearing test in …
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
Wrong issue.
The problem with bearings in turbos in most automotive applications is coking, not spalling.
;
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money.
Synthetic oil doesn't alter overhaul rates to any significant degree. It gives them as little as 1/5 the downtime for oil changes.
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money.
Synthetic oil doesn't alter overhaul rates to any significant degree. It gives them as little as 1/5 the downtime for oil changes.
Hi,
Gary Allan - The use of synthetic HDEOs can IME reduce the maintenance requirements such as valve train adjustments etc
As for overhaul rates, well that is a major question mark!
The cost effectiveness mineral v synthetic occurs (in this Country at least) as the OCI can be extended via UOAs well beyond 2.5 times if managed correctly - and "uptime" is enhanced accordingly
Synthetic lubricants do seem to aid turbocharger life for many of the reasons already listed by others. I expect the turbochanger's lifespan to be extended by a factor of around 50% on certain highway applications and possibly even longer in other more complex "city" operations
As for car engines, well Porsche know a lot about turbocharged engines and they have not Approved a mineral lubricant for nearly a decade!!
The "only" lubricant Approved to be used in the twin turbo Cayenne V8 for instance is M1 0w-40 - and that has been the case since the first one hit the market place several years ago. And, no turbo failure history either that I know of!
Gary Allan - The use of synthetic HDEOs can IME reduce the maintenance requirements such as valve train adjustments etc
As for overhaul rates, well that is a major question mark!
The cost effectiveness mineral v synthetic occurs (in this Country at least) as the OCI can be extended via UOAs well beyond 2.5 times if managed correctly - and "uptime" is enhanced accordingly
Synthetic lubricants do seem to aid turbocharger life for many of the reasons already listed by others. I expect the turbochanger's lifespan to be extended by a factor of around 50% on certain highway applications and possibly even longer in other more complex "city" operations
As for car engines, well Porsche know a lot about turbocharged engines and they have not Approved a mineral lubricant for nearly a decade!!
The "only" lubricant Approved to be used in the twin turbo Cayenne V8 for instance is M1 0w-40 - and that has been the case since the first one hit the market place several years ago. And, no turbo failure history either that I know of!
Last edited:
hmm in all honesty i think that synthetic shines really in really high rpm instances and cold flow. based on all that i have read and most applications that call for synthetic. and the main purpose that synthetic was designed for was for cold and high rpm operation. so the bearings in turbos and supers move at very high rpm. i know i will get something for this but oh well i am no expert and nor are MOST of you
I know a mechanic who claimes that synthetics produce harder deposits which "scratch?" and reduce the life of his Renault turbochargers.
The manual (1986-1993)recommended conventional elf 15W50 and he usually gets 100.000 trouble free miles with it whereas others with various synthetics faced problems with less than 50,000 miles in same engines.He has done plenty of teardowns.
I guess Renault and Porsche use different metals, what is ideal for a porsche may not be good for something else.
The manual (1986-1993)recommended conventional elf 15W50 and he usually gets 100.000 trouble free miles with it whereas others with various synthetics faced problems with less than 50,000 miles in same engines.He has done plenty of teardowns.
I guess Renault and Porsche use different metals, what is ideal for a porsche may not be good for something else.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: brandontyler65
hmm in all honesty i think that synthetic shines really in really high rpm instances and cold flow. based on all that i have read and most applications that call for synthetic. and the main purpose that synthetic was designed for was for cold and high rpm operation. so the bearings in turbos and supers move at very high rpm. i know i will get something for this but oh well i am no expert and nor are MOST of you
What does high rpm have to do with the base oil? And how cold does the better flow of syn oil kick in. Though I agree with the advantage of syn oil use below constant freezing temps or lower.
hmm in all honesty i think that synthetic shines really in really high rpm instances and cold flow. based on all that i have read and most applications that call for synthetic. and the main purpose that synthetic was designed for was for cold and high rpm operation. so the bearings in turbos and supers move at very high rpm. i know i will get something for this but oh well i am no expert and nor are MOST of you
What does high rpm have to do with the base oil? And how cold does the better flow of syn oil kick in. Though I agree with the advantage of syn oil use below constant freezing temps or lower.
Doug ,
1) How many 5,000 mile syn oil changes are posted on this websites uoa area?
2) Porches recommended oil change intervals?
3) I am not bashing syn oil ,I use it in certain applications . If the advantages of syn oils aren't used why spent the extra $$$ .
1) How many 5,000 mile syn oil changes are posted on this websites uoa area?
2) Porches recommended oil change intervals?
3) I am not bashing syn oil ,I use it in certain applications . If the advantages of syn oils aren't used why spent the extra $$$ .
Originally Posted By: Rolf
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
If you look at the fatigue life bearing test in …
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
Wrong issue.
The problem with bearings in turbos in most automotive applications is coking, not spalling.
;
Exactly and the usual cause is turning off the engine when the turbo temps are too high. But then even with a turbo there is still the rest of the engine.
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
If you look at the fatigue life bearing test in …
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
Wrong issue.
The problem with bearings in turbos in most automotive applications is coking, not spalling.
;
Exactly and the usual cause is turning off the engine when the turbo temps are too high. But then even with a turbo there is still the rest of the engine.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money.
Synthetic oil doesn't alter overhaul rates to any significant degree. It gives them as little as 1/5 the downtime for oil changes.
Gary how many 5,000 to 7,500ish mile syn oil changes are posted in the uoas?
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money.
Synthetic oil doesn't alter overhaul rates to any significant degree. It gives them as little as 1/5 the downtime for oil changes.
Gary how many 5,000 to 7,500ish mile syn oil changes are posted in the uoas?
Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
If its any consolation I have used Red Line 10w-40 in my 96 SS Turbo LT-1 ( Pro Tubro Kit-PTK-air to water intercooler and T-76GTS running 24 PSi and producing 1,000rwhp) for a some time now with zero issues. I have not seen any of the local GN guys here running conventional oil. Why is everyone here so paranoid?? Modern conventional oil prob works just fine in turbo cars unless the drains are extended. Its not like any of us are with Joe Gibbs racing or henderson MS!
I too agree there is nothing like a teardown to truely evaluate how an oil is working! Good luck
I almost would have to ask you for a ride but I know I would mess my pants !!!!
If its any consolation I have used Red Line 10w-40 in my 96 SS Turbo LT-1 ( Pro Tubro Kit-PTK-air to water intercooler and T-76GTS running 24 PSi and producing 1,000rwhp) for a some time now with zero issues. I have not seen any of the local GN guys here running conventional oil. Why is everyone here so paranoid?? Modern conventional oil prob works just fine in turbo cars unless the drains are extended. Its not like any of us are with Joe Gibbs racing or henderson MS!
I almost would have to ask you for a ride but I know I would mess my pants !!!!
Just for reference: I have owned 7 GN/T-Types over the years and still have my original 87 GN from new now with 135K miles but MINT! The first 10 years and 100K miles the car was a 1/4 mile monster with many 10+ run nights. I have been using Castrol GTX 10w-30 since new with a Fram filter for most of it life. (Changed to GM filter after the "Fram filter" fiasco of recent years). I replaced an oil pan a few years back when it had about 110K miles and the lower end was a nice gold color, no sludge at all. I replaced the valve cover gaskets a couple of years ago and didn't even need to clean them out they were so clean. The first ten year I was doing 3-5K OCI as the local oil change place and now its every fall before going into storage.
Last edited:
Good testimony for GTX!
Hi,
Steve S - As follows;
1 - I would not have a clue!
2 - They vary from 2 years or 20k miles to 1 year or 12k miles
It has been this way for up to 30 years
UOAs on my cars have shown that these are quite conservative recomended limits
3 - You are correct it is a cost/effective arguement unless of course they are mandated by the vehicle's manufacturer
IMO the real advantages of synthetic lubricants are in very cold/very warm operating ambient temperatures and at high engine operating temperatures (like in most Euro engines) and for extended OCIs (using UOAs to set and monitor the limits)
Turbocharged engines typically fit into this mould!
Realistic OCIs will become more important in NA as your lubricant and fuel prices get more "real world" from an unsustainable base and begin to match those in other Countries such as here in Australia
Steve S - As follows;
1 - I would not have a clue!
2 - They vary from 2 years or 20k miles to 1 year or 12k miles
It has been this way for up to 30 years
UOAs on my cars have shown that these are quite conservative recomended limits
3 - You are correct it is a cost/effective arguement unless of course they are mandated by the vehicle's manufacturer
IMO the real advantages of synthetic lubricants are in very cold/very warm operating ambient temperatures and at high engine operating temperatures (like in most Euro engines) and for extended OCIs (using UOAs to set and monitor the limits)
Turbocharged engines typically fit into this mould!
Realistic OCIs will become more important in NA as your lubricant and fuel prices get more "real world" from an unsustainable base and begin to match those in other Countries such as here in Australia
Doug,I was real happy with the real world price
of 99 cents per gallon. I only drive 8,000 to 10,000 miles per year max and my wife averages around 12,500 miles ."miles over the last 15 years" Doug ,a belated it is good to have you back on board.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Gary Allan - The use of synthetic HDEOs can IME reduce the maintenance requirements such as valve train adjustments etc
As for overhaul rates, well that is a major question mark!
The cost effectiveness mineral v synthetic occurs (in this Country at least) as the OCI can be extended via UOAs well beyond 2.5 times if managed correctly - and "uptime" is enhanced accordingly
Synthetic lubricants do seem to aid turbocharger life for many of the reasons already listed by others. I expect the turbochanger's lifespan to be extended by a factor of around 50% on certain highway applications and possibly even longer in other more complex "city" operations
As for car engines, well Porsche know a lot about turbocharged engines and they have not Approved a mineral lubricant for nearly a decade!!
The "only" lubricant Approved to be used in the twin turbo Cayenne V8 for instance is M1 0w-40 - and that has been the case since the first one hit the market place several years ago. And, no turbo failure history either that I know of!
I knew you were in the background, Doug. I could sense it (cue suspense music -
)
I believe that your assertion, which I share, is that there is no "magic oil" in terms of longevity in commercial service. If there was, and it significantly effected overhaul rates to any appreciable amount, it wouldn't matter what it cost.
Now on the variable service that a passenger car may see
I'd say that you could probably tune a lube to neutralize the environmental and process variables to alter outcomes.
Hi,
Gary Allan - The use of synthetic HDEOs can IME reduce the maintenance requirements such as valve train adjustments etc
As for overhaul rates, well that is a major question mark!
The cost effectiveness mineral v synthetic occurs (in this Country at least) as the OCI can be extended via UOAs well beyond 2.5 times if managed correctly - and "uptime" is enhanced accordingly
Synthetic lubricants do seem to aid turbocharger life for many of the reasons already listed by others. I expect the turbochanger's lifespan to be extended by a factor of around 50% on certain highway applications and possibly even longer in other more complex "city" operations
As for car engines, well Porsche know a lot about turbocharged engines and they have not Approved a mineral lubricant for nearly a decade!!
The "only" lubricant Approved to be used in the twin turbo Cayenne V8 for instance is M1 0w-40 - and that has been the case since the first one hit the market place several years ago. And, no turbo failure history either that I know of!
I knew you were in the background, Doug. I could sense it (cue suspense music -
I believe that your assertion, which I share, is that there is no "magic oil" in terms of longevity in commercial service. If there was, and it significantly effected overhaul rates to any appreciable amount, it wouldn't matter what it cost.
Now on the variable service that a passenger car may see
Hi,
Gary - I agree with your comments - such new technology lubricants are in the wings already I believe
Gary - I agree with your comments - such new technology lubricants are in the wings already I believe
BuickGN -
As you know, I'm a fellow GN owner as well. Without going into a lot, just stick with Syn lubes in the GN. I have used M1 with good results from new to a few years ago when I switched over to Redline. My engine has never been apart and when I changed my turbo out to a bigger one the original was clean and the oil lines were not at all coked or blocked. Just clean thru and thru. This guy saying not to use Syn lubes is stuck in the past and since he is racing his car he probably rebuilds a lot and never sees extended use with any oil to make a statement like that.
As you know, I'm a fellow GN owner as well. Without going into a lot, just stick with Syn lubes in the GN. I have used M1 with good results from new to a few years ago when I switched over to Redline. My engine has never been apart and when I changed my turbo out to a bigger one the original was clean and the oil lines were not at all coked or blocked. Just clean thru and thru. This guy saying not to use Syn lubes is stuck in the past and since he is racing his car he probably rebuilds a lot and never sees extended use with any oil to make a statement like that.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
BuickGN -
As you know, I'm a fellow GN owner as well. Without going into a lot, just stick with Syn lubes in the GN. I have used M1 with good results from new to a few years ago when I switched over to Redline. My engine has never been apart and when I changed my turbo out to a bigger one the original was clean and the oil lines were not at all coked or blocked. Just clean thru and thru. This guy saying not to use Syn lubes is stuck in the past and since he is racing his car he probably rebuilds a lot and never sees extended use with any oil to make a statement like that.
I hear what you're saying. I'm not going to name names but the guy lives in Vegas, builds 200-4Rs, and did a lot of the work on the Gallina's cars. Coming from someone so big in the Turbo Buick community is what got my attention. Since this info came to me second hand, details could've gotten lost in translation.
BuickGN -
As you know, I'm a fellow GN owner as well. Without going into a lot, just stick with Syn lubes in the GN. I have used M1 with good results from new to a few years ago when I switched over to Redline. My engine has never been apart and when I changed my turbo out to a bigger one the original was clean and the oil lines were not at all coked or blocked. Just clean thru and thru. This guy saying not to use Syn lubes is stuck in the past and since he is racing his car he probably rebuilds a lot and never sees extended use with any oil to make a statement like that.
I hear what you're saying. I'm not going to name names but the guy lives in Vegas, builds 200-4Rs, and did a lot of the work on the Gallina's cars. Coming from someone so big in the Turbo Buick community is what got my attention. Since this info came to me second hand, details could've gotten lost in translation.
Patman
Staff member
Just to clarify things here, is this guy claiming not to use synthetics in a turbo car because it'll harm things? And if so, what would the harm be?
OR-is he simply saying that synthetic oil is not a necessity in a turbo car?
Because there is a big difference between those two assertions.
OR-is he simply saying that synthetic oil is not a necessity in a turbo car?
Because there is a big difference between those two assertions.
- Status
Similar threads
