Actually, quite the opposite would be true. That's not to say that every synthetic oil in the past has been formulated well. There's still stories floating around from 30 years ago about certain syn oil that would wipe out your camshaft or something. I don't remember the brand name(s)though. Apparently there was a problem in the formulation, and that affected the image of synthetic oil in general for quite a while as it was a relatively new product.
Don't use synthetic in a turbo car!
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Many old people are afraid of changes, and this is most probably the reason in his case
Or maybe he has found this is a good way to mislead his competitors.
Synthetic oil with good additive packets in a turbo car, will not lead to any more problems than if you use mineral oil(group 1, 2 and 3).
Remember, though, that in US, group 3 is called synthetic, even though it is only a hydrocracked mineral oil.
Today, many mineral oils are very good, because of good additive packets, but when the additives are used, you will see that it looses its qualities very fast, compared to a good TRUE synthetic oil.
Or maybe he has found this is a good way to mislead his competitors.
Synthetic oil with good additive packets in a turbo car, will not lead to any more problems than if you use mineral oil(group 1, 2 and 3).
Remember, though, that in US, group 3 is called synthetic, even though it is only a hydrocracked mineral oil.
Today, many mineral oils are very good, because of good additive packets, but when the additives are used, you will see that it looses its qualities very fast, compared to a good TRUE synthetic oil.
bmwtechguy, I think Mobil1 had some problems with their synthetic oil, some 32-33 years ago, and because of this the myth that synthetics can cause problems, was created.
The fact that they solved the problem, doesn't change these peoples perception of synthetic oil.
The fact that they solved the problem, doesn't change these peoples perception of synthetic oil.
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Real UOA data from turbocharged engines demonstrate that synthetic oil is the preferred oil if used in the proper viscosity. If buickGN is correct, then GN is the only one who has a problem with synthetic oil. A 7 second QM does not make one a lubrication specialist in my opinion. Ed
There are two well known turbo manuafacturers in the diesel world that does not reccomend synthethic either with a turbo. They say the syn oils do not suspend the soot like a dino oil does therefore leaving soot deposits in the motor and turbo, esp. the turbo bearings.
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BuickGN, ask him why he says this and let us know.
I don't doubt synthetic is better for cleanliness in a turbo. The interesting question to me here is what is better for wear. This type of use is a very interesting engine wear laboratory.
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
I'm not Steve S but the obvious reason to suspect PAO synthetics is the lack of polarity, as has been discussed here several times lately. The most recent:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1135096#Post1135096
PAOs are mixed with other oils to provide polarity and have anti-wear additives like other oils for when films break down. The bottom line is still that have less natural film strength than other oils as a chemical characteristic and that is the primary reason I'm aware of to question their superiority in terms of wear performance.
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
I'm not Steve S but the obvious reason to suspect PAO synthetics is the lack of polarity, as has been discussed here several times lately. The most recent:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1135096#Post1135096
PAOs are mixed with other oils to provide polarity and have anti-wear additives like other oils for when films break down. The bottom line is still that have less natural film strength than other oils as a chemical characteristic and that is the primary reason I'm aware of to question their superiority in terms of wear performance.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Real UOA data from turbocharged engines demonstrate that synthetic oil is the preferred oil if used in the proper viscosity. If buickGN is correct, then GN is the only one who has a problem with synthetic oil. A 7 second QM does not make one a lubrication specialist in my opinion. Ed
I put more faith in teardowns than UOAs.
A 7 second run doesn't make him an expert on lubrication but he has enough faith to run it in a car with over $100K invested. I'm sure he's done a teardown or two....
The GN motor isn't different from any other 3.8L mechanically but it is a low rpm high torque monster. It's not uncommon to have people put down 400hp and 600lbs of torque at 2,900rpm. Maybe this is where a high film strength is important?
Like I said before, my own teardowns are what scared me away from synthetic in the first place, long before I discovered this website. I'm not condemning synthetics but I don't have deep enough pockets to experiment. It could very well have been my lack of tuning experience early on in the game.
My car might be the perfect environment for a dino oil. Big oil cooler, plenty of cooldown time, and very short OCIs. Until I see different, I will keep running synthetics in a low performance car like the TL but I'm getting nervous about the switch to Redline in the GN.
I will talk to him face to face when I go to Vegas in a couple weeks and post back.
Real UOA data from turbocharged engines demonstrate that synthetic oil is the preferred oil if used in the proper viscosity. If buickGN is correct, then GN is the only one who has a problem with synthetic oil. A 7 second QM does not make one a lubrication specialist in my opinion. Ed
I put more faith in teardowns than UOAs.
A 7 second run doesn't make him an expert on lubrication but he has enough faith to run it in a car with over $100K invested. I'm sure he's done a teardown or two....
The GN motor isn't different from any other 3.8L mechanically but it is a low rpm high torque monster. It's not uncommon to have people put down 400hp and 600lbs of torque at 2,900rpm. Maybe this is where a high film strength is important?
Like I said before, my own teardowns are what scared me away from synthetic in the first place, long before I discovered this website. I'm not condemning synthetics but I don't have deep enough pockets to experiment. It could very well have been my lack of tuning experience early on in the game.
My car might be the perfect environment for a dino oil. Big oil cooler, plenty of cooldown time, and very short OCIs. Until I see different, I will keep running synthetics in a low performance car like the TL but I'm getting nervous about the switch to Redline in the GN.
I will talk to him face to face when I go to Vegas in a couple weeks and post back.
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
bmwtechguy, I think Mobil1 had some problems with their synthetic oil, some 32-33 years ago, and because of this the myth that synthetics can cause problems, was created.
The fact that they solved the problem, doesn't change these peoples perception of synthetic oil.
I have used Mobil 1 starting back in the late 1970s changing it @ 7500 miles at that time without issue and am currently using Mobil 1 5W20 in both vehicles.
Never had any issues with it although now being retired oil is changed just under 6 months in both vehicles unless on an extended vacation to keep the warranty folks happy.
There are several good synthetic oils on the market but I have stuck with Mobil 1 and have good results with it.
bmwtechguy, I think Mobil1 had some problems with their synthetic oil, some 32-33 years ago, and because of this the myth that synthetics can cause problems, was created.
The fact that they solved the problem, doesn't change these peoples perception of synthetic oil.
I have used Mobil 1 starting back in the late 1970s changing it @ 7500 miles at that time without issue and am currently using Mobil 1 5W20 in both vehicles.
Never had any issues with it although now being retired oil is changed just under 6 months in both vehicles unless on an extended vacation to keep the warranty folks happy.
There are several good synthetic oils on the market but I have stuck with Mobil 1 and have good results with it.
For turbos, you want good oxidation and high temperature resistance. One of the reasons M1 is chosen for many high performance cars is because it handles both very well, as do other good synthetics such as Amsoil/Redline etc.
Two new turbo engines hit the market over the last 2 years, the Honda 2.2 turbo in the RDX, and Nissan GTR Twin Turbo. Both require the use of synthetic oil. Both are factory filled with Mobil 1 and in the RDX, Mobil 1 produced ZERO deposits.
This whole idea that synthetics shouldn't be used in turbos is ridiculous. Has no basis at all.
Two new turbo engines hit the market over the last 2 years, the Honda 2.2 turbo in the RDX, and Nissan GTR Twin Turbo. Both require the use of synthetic oil. Both are factory filled with Mobil 1 and in the RDX, Mobil 1 produced ZERO deposits.
This whole idea that synthetics shouldn't be used in turbos is ridiculous. Has no basis at all.
2 benefits of a syn over mineral in a turbo as I understand things.
Syn usually has a higher oxid temp.
Syn molecules are more uniform helping them transfer more heat away from the metal surfaces than a mineral, which is far less uniform
Then add to that the potential ester formulations as would likely get excellent soot/insol suspension as well as cleaning of the surfaces.
No?
Syn usually has a higher oxid temp.
Syn molecules are more uniform helping them transfer more heat away from the metal surfaces than a mineral, which is far less uniform
Then add to that the potential ester formulations as would likely get excellent soot/insol suspension as well as cleaning of the surfaces.
No?
Originally Posted By: buster
For turbos, you want good oxidation and high temperature resistance. One of the reasons M1 is chosen for many high performance cars is because it handles both very well, as do other good synthetics such as Amsoil/Redline etc.
Two new turbo engines hit the market over the last 2 years, the Honda 2.2 turbo in the RDX, and Nissan GTR Twin Turbo. Both require the use of synthetic oil. Both are factory filled with Mobil 1 and in the RDX, Mobil 1 produced ZERO deposits.
This whole idea that synthetics shouldn't be used in turbos is ridiculous. Has no basis at all.
I think deposits and coking are problems associated with the average consumer who knows nothing about cars, not enthusiasts. I have had 0 problems with deposits and coking because I've always given the car a cool down period with fairly short OCIs. If I were building cars for the general public, I would recommend synthetic too.
As far as wear protection at WOT and high boost, I'm not convinced there is an advantage to synthetics.
For turbos, you want good oxidation and high temperature resistance. One of the reasons M1 is chosen for many high performance cars is because it handles both very well, as do other good synthetics such as Amsoil/Redline etc.
Two new turbo engines hit the market over the last 2 years, the Honda 2.2 turbo in the RDX, and Nissan GTR Twin Turbo. Both require the use of synthetic oil. Both are factory filled with Mobil 1 and in the RDX, Mobil 1 produced ZERO deposits.
This whole idea that synthetics shouldn't be used in turbos is ridiculous. Has no basis at all.
I think deposits and coking are problems associated with the average consumer who knows nothing about cars, not enthusiasts. I have had 0 problems with deposits and coking because I've always given the car a cool down period with fairly short OCIs. If I were building cars for the general public, I would recommend synthetic too.
As far as wear protection at WOT and high boost, I'm not convinced there is an advantage to synthetics.
If its any consolation I have used Red Line 10w-40 in my 96 SS Turbo LT-1 ( Pro Tubro Kit-PTK-air to water intercooler and T-76GTS running 24 PSi and producing 1,000rwhp) for a some time now with zero issues. I have not seen any of the local GN guys here running conventional oil. Why is everyone here so paranoid?? Modern conventional oil prob works just fine in turbo cars unless the drains are extended. Its not like any of us are with Joe Gibbs racing or henderson MS!
I too agree there is nothing like a teardown to truely evaluate how an oil is working! Good luck
Originally Posted By: Harley Anderson
There are two well known turbo manuafacturers in the diesel world that does not reccomend synthethic either with a turbo. They say the syn oils do not suspend the soot like a dino oil does therefore leaving soot deposits in the motor and turbo, esp. the turbo bearings.
That's a diesel issue, not a turbo issue.
Using ExxonMobil as an example, their 5W-40 Delvac 1 has a higher percentage of Group V lubricants and a different additive package than their gasoline-engine formulas specifically to handle diesel soot.
There's no particular reason a synthetic that handles soot can't be formulated.
'
There are two well known turbo manuafacturers in the diesel world that does not reccomend synthethic either with a turbo. They say the syn oils do not suspend the soot like a dino oil does therefore leaving soot deposits in the motor and turbo, esp. the turbo bearings.
That's a diesel issue, not a turbo issue.
Using ExxonMobil as an example, their 5W-40 Delvac 1 has a higher percentage of Group V lubricants and a different additive package than their gasoline-engine formulas specifically to handle diesel soot.
There's no particular reason a synthetic that handles soot can't be formulated.
'
Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
If its any consolation I have used Red Line 10w-40 in my 96 SS Turbo LT-1 ( Pro Tubro Kit-PTK-air to water intercooler and T-76GTS running 24 PSi and producing 1,000rwhp) for a some time now with zero issues. I have not seen any of the local GN guys here running conventional oil. Why is everyone here so paranoid?? Modern conventional oil prob works just fine in turbo cars unless the drains are extended. Its not like any of us are with Joe Gibbs racing or henderson MS!
I too agree there is nothing like a teardown to truely evaluate how an oil is working! Good luck
That makes me feel a little better, that's the oil I've been looking to try out. May I ask what your OCI is and how many miles are on the current motor? How does that GTS spool with 350+ cubes? We're running a T-76GTQ on one of the GNs and at only 4.5L I'm amazed by how quick it spools.
If its any consolation I have used Red Line 10w-40 in my 96 SS Turbo LT-1 ( Pro Tubro Kit-PTK-air to water intercooler and T-76GTS running 24 PSi and producing 1,000rwhp) for a some time now with zero issues. I have not seen any of the local GN guys here running conventional oil. Why is everyone here so paranoid?? Modern conventional oil prob works just fine in turbo cars unless the drains are extended. Its not like any of us are with Joe Gibbs racing or henderson MS!
That makes me feel a little better, that's the oil I've been looking to try out. May I ask what your OCI is and how many miles are on the current motor? How does that GTS spool with 350+ cubes? We're running a T-76GTQ on one of the GNs and at only 4.5L I'm amazed by how quick it spools.
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
Many old people are afraid of changes, and this is most probably the reason in his case
Or maybe he has found this is a good way to mislead his competitors.
Synthetic oil with good additive packets in a turbo car, will not lead to any more problems than if you use mineral oil(group 1, 2 and 3).
Remember, though, that in US, group 3 is called synthetic, even though it is only a hydrocracked mineral oil.
Today, many mineral oils are very good, because of good additive packets, but when the additives are used, you will see that it looses its qualities very fast, compared to a good TRUE synthetic oil.
The same adds are used in syn oils .
Many old people are afraid of changes, and this is most probably the reason in his case
Or maybe he has found this is a good way to mislead his competitors.
Synthetic oil with good additive packets in a turbo car, will not lead to any more problems than if you use mineral oil(group 1, 2 and 3).
Remember, though, that in US, group 3 is called synthetic, even though it is only a hydrocracked mineral oil.
Today, many mineral oils are very good, because of good additive packets, but when the additives are used, you will see that it looses its qualities very fast, compared to a good TRUE synthetic oil.
The same adds are used in syn oils .
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money. Your engine will last longer than the rest of your car.
SteveS list ONE way conventional is superior to synthetic?
Million mile truck engines? Best value for the money. Your engine will last longer than the rest of your car.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Real UOA data from turbocharged engines demonstrate that synthetic oil is the preferred oil if used in the proper viscosity. If buickGN is correct, then GN is the only one who has a problem with synthetic oil. A 7 second QM does not make one a lubrication specialist in my opinion. Ed
G.M. did not recommend or require syn oil in the G.N or G.N.X.
Real UOA data from turbocharged engines demonstrate that synthetic oil is the preferred oil if used in the proper viscosity. If buickGN is correct, then GN is the only one who has a problem with synthetic oil. A 7 second QM does not make one a lubrication specialist in my opinion. Ed
G.M. did not recommend or require syn oil in the G.N or G.N.X.
If you look at the fatigue life bearing test in …
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
As long as the mineral oil hasn't broken down from being run too long in a high heat environment. It's certainly appears possible that in some high stress situations a mineral could outperform a synthetic for wear, based on this test.
Maximizing Bearing Life With EHD Fluids
… the mineral oil (paraffinic probably a Group II) actually outperformed both the PAO and Diester oils in the number of cycles before spalling occurred.
As long as the mineral oil hasn't broken down from being run too long in a high heat environment. It's certainly appears possible that in some high stress situations a mineral could outperform a synthetic for wear, based on this test.
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