Does all the Fe in M1 mean to stay away?

[tpattgeek]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
Thank God for our free market society, at least for now so we can buy what we want. The quality of the Honda/Honeywell filters is excellent but if your local dealer is charging you $8 and up for them, shame on them. My dealer charges me $4.86 every time they install one for me.


Yeah, I said 8 bucks... but I think it was around 7.75... because you know they have to sell you that crush washer for .91... so all in all i guess around 9 bucks... can't you get those washers at parts stores when you buy your filter? Are they vehicle specific?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: db500
if the Fe was an issue with Mobil1 products...you can bet Amsoil and all the other oil manufacturers would be banging the drum and calling out the failure on the highest selling synthetic oil on the market.
Uhh, they are. X times less wear than Mobil 1 - who said that? Mobil 1 fails the seq IVa cam wear test - Who said that?
I like the oft repeated, "I've been using M1 for 40 years ..." M1 what? Its been reformulated many times. Like a '77 DeChamps Bourgogne Rouge is the same today! Just kiddin, ya'll, bc, Oh Boy, its been how many minutes since the last M1 = high Iron thread appeared? This is so funny and the responses are so predictable. BITOG is so funny ... and sad ....

 

[d00df00d]

They're not squealing about high iron, though. They're squealing about the results of that specific test when they ran it several years ago. It's a different claim.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I agree, if your sloughing .004" off multiple cam lobes, I bet your putting iron somewhere, willing to bet most is trapped in the oil filter pleats. That's why UOA without looking at filter contents is pretty much a useless gauge of engine wear - Da Stuffs in da filter, James!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I agree, if your sloughing .004" off multiple cam lobes, I bet your putting iron somewhere, willing to bet most is trapped in the oil filter pleats. That's why UOA without looking at filter contents is pretty much a useless gauge of engine wear - Da Stuffs in da filter, James!

Exactly. Which means that EVEN IF the cam wear thing still means something (which it hasn't for several years, especially since Mobil 1 has re-formuated across the board), you wouldn't know it from the UOAs most people do.

Which means we still have to ask if the UOA numbers indicate a problem, of which there is no proof.

Which is exactly my point.

Thank-you.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Which means that EVEN IF the cam wear thing still means something (which it hasn't for several years, especially since Mobil 1 has re-formuated across the board), you wouldn't know it from the UOAs most people do.


Would that not also mean that any claims of suitability from that same history be equally null and void?

That is, someone claiming that they've used it for 32 years and had no issues ..they're believe/assertions/etc. are absolutely (perhaps unknowingly WINK:WINK) without merit?

Quote:
Which means we still have to ask if the UOA numbers indicate a problem, of which there is no proof.


...and would this not mandate that there's no proof that it doesn't indicate a problem? If you can't prove one, you cannot eliminate the other.

Now I personally feel that there is no problem, but I can't prove it ..

..and to attempt to form opinion ..and state it as anything but opinion ..without conclusive evidence one way or the other, ..well, that would be just plain lame and promoting false impressions

wouldn't you say?

 

[d00df00d]

...You think that's air you're breathing now?

 

[tpattgeek]

I knew this thread would bring out the philosophical side in us, but got good feedback in the meantime. I think my conclusion is... WHEN I have an engine failure, whether it's 2 days from now or 2 decades from now, it will MORE THAN LIKELY not be due to the oil I chose to use 3 years ago. Just wanted to get some semi-straight answers about this topic since I failed to find them elsewhere. Thanks for the info.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: tpattgeek
Just wanted to get some semi-straight answers about this topic since I failed to find them elsewhere.

So, you mean the M1 Q&A wasn't helpful?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...You think that's air you're breathing now?


What is "real"?


For many, perception is a good enough facsimile of reality for them to accept it as "real".

 

[KieferS]

And that is enough evidence for me to stay away from it

 

[Steve S]

8X ?

 

[cjhepburn]

My brother's '01 Civic ran for 392k miles on QS dino. He never did a UOA or thought about engine wear but he was religious about service intervals. The point is, use your favorite oil, remember to change at your favorite interval, and don't worry about it.

Why only 392k you ask... His car was totaled by a deer that was stuck in the median strip of the highway and decided to make his move just as he was in front of my brother.

 

[lexus114]

When those Hound Dog`s die,their just too stupid to fall over.

 

[moving2]

I've been an M1 user for about 8 years now, but right now I have both Pennzoil Ultra 5W40 and Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 in my stash. Here's the way I think about it: after several OCIs/UOAs running M1 and several OCIs/UOAs running PU, if M1 shows consistently higher Fe readings vs. PU, and the other numbers look good on the PU, then I'll switch from M1 to PU.

If you're looking for the best protection for your car, I think the question to ask is not "is there any evidence the higher Fe is causing harm?" but rather "What oil returns the best UOAs for my engine?" and Fe is one of the factors to look at.

There is certainly the potential that higher Fe may indicate higher wear over time vs. a comparable oil with lower Fe counts- the effect of this potential wear on your engine is unknown, though. Using a comparable oil without the higher Fe counts, could we expect 0 miles or 10 miles or 10k miles or 100k miles more out of the motor? Nobody seems to have that long-term data. So, since the long-term effect of the Fe is unknown, I'll stick with a comparable oil with lower Fe counts (*IF* that's what I find in my UOAs).

I guess I don't understand the "innocent till proven guilty" attitude toward the higher Fe readings in M1. If you're in this to defend M1, then by all means ask if there is any evidence of harm from the Fe readings, and I'll bet you there's none. But then also ask yourself- if the higher Fe were even a problem, is this a problem you'd expect to see in just a few OCIs? Or even in 100K miles? Or is it something that you might see when it comes to the mileage lifetime of the engine before rebuild? The small differences in Fe I've seen lead me to lean toward the latter, if there is any difference at all.

In the end, I'm planning to keep my vehicle and rebuild the engine. If I have a choice between oils and one shows lower Fe counts and is otherwise comparable in performance, I'm not going to ask if there is evidence the extra Fe is causing harm, I'm going with the oil with the lower Fe count just in case it will make a difference in the # miles I get out of my engine before rebuild. In the end, nobody really knows if it will, but why not stay on the safe side, right?

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: KieferS
And that is enough evidence for me to stay away from it

I have to agree. M1 may be a great oil, but it is NOT the best, has a tendency to leak vs others in same app, and the "Iron/FE mystery" makes me look elsewhere.

Need GREAT Oil? Get Redline, spend the money. That is your Engine!!!
Need something GOOD ENOUGH? Anything from Syntec, PP, on down to PYB will do!!!

Not knocking M1, it just seems like other oils dont have that mystery. They can praise it and build golden calves to it all they want, im not buying. Unless my Probe likes M1 5W-50.. if i can bring myself to put it in to see how it goes. And if i dont dump it after 200 miles..

2011, we will see how M1 stacks up in my car. Really, its a car by car basis.

I still have my doubts, and need to talk myself into buying the jugs when i coul d buy something else.

Maybe ill flip a coin. That should do it.

In M1's defense, its FF in a lot of cars. For the European cars, it is a better, DIFFERENT M1.. and they too are getting away from it (Much like GC is not your USA Castrol, from BP in Wayne, NJ.) For most of the 2000s, it was this European M1 that was in there. Not anymore..

 

[Jakegday]

i like how people say "ive used mobil 1 X amount of years" like its been the same oil the entire time.

now all you need to do is say something that applies to TODAY. like high iron levels

it doesnt help that mobil PERSONALLY gave a B.S. answer to that specific question either

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: Jakegday
i like how people say "ive used mobil 1 X amount of years" like its been the same oil the entire time.

now all you need to do is say something that applies to TODAY. like high iron levels

it doesnt help that mobil PERSONALLY gave a B.S. answer to that specific question either


+1

I also wanted to quickly clarify that i put "M1 5W-50" in my last post.. meant M1 15W-50. At least they got the ZDDP right on that. I might give it a shot. MAYBE. MAYYYYBEEEEE.... I like that more than the 0W-40, which seems to do well in MB.

Other than that? NO!

Id mix M1 0W-40 with 15W-50 too, for the best of both worlds.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: moving2
If you're looking for the best protection for your car, I think the question to ask is not "is there any evidence the higher Fe is causing harm?" but rather "What oil returns the best UOAs for my engine?" and Fe is one of the factors to look at.

This sounds 100% reasonable, especially as you've explained it.

However, think about what it means in practice. You're effectively saying it doesn't matter whether the measurement you're using is valid; all that matters is whether the results are better. That obviously doesn't make sense because IF the test turns out to be meaningless, the results are meaningless whether they're good or bad. That's why you have to know WHAT the numbers on the UOA means BEFORE you make your decision. Otherwise, you might as well be reading tea leaves and sacrificing goats.

The question of this thread is this: "Does all the Fe in M1 mean to stay away?" The answer is no. Why? Because there is no reason to think that the higher iron counts mean anything bad. At all. Period. If you prefer to use an oil that generates lower iron counts on UOAs, then more power to you. But until it is proven that that actually means something for engine wear -- which you seem to agree has never been done -- that's just a preference on your part, and it has no bearing on the question.

You also seem to think that the only reason to talk like this is to defend Mobil 1. That is blatantly false. Very few people here are brand loyal to Mobil 1, let alone do they care enough to defend it. What we care about are this forum's standards of evidence and what passes for good advice. If BITOGers are bagging on ANY product for bad reasons, it hurts our credibility as a forum.

Relying on test results to make decisions without knowing what the results mean is silly. Telling people not to care about the validity of the tests they're using is worse. Junk info is NOT better than nothing. Please don't tell people not to worry about the difference.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
You also seem to think that the only reason to talk like this is to defend Mobil 1. That is blatantly false. Very few people here are brand loyal to Mobil 1, let alone do they care enough to defend it. What we care about are this forum's standards of evidence and what passes for good advice. If BITOGers are bagging on ANY product for bad reasons, it hurts our credibility as a forum.

Relying on test results to make decisions without knowing what the results mean is silly. Telling people not to care about the validity of the tests they're using is worse. Junk info is NOT better than nothing. Please don't tell people not to worry about the difference.


I'm bookmarking this for later reference if you don't mind. I'll remind you of it when the slant is running against another oil in the UOA section due to numbers ..and ask you to use the same effort at thwarting it in a non-M1 thread ....since you really have no dog in the fight one way or the other...