LOL These threads open up the door to getting blasted. I was in the mood to take a shot at getting blasted this morning. The truth is if I owned the OP's car 5W30 is what I'd have in the sump, and I wouldn't look back.
Car recommends 5W-30 outside US and Canada vs 0W-20. Run 5W-30 right?
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These last 2 pages of this thread have been a breath of fresh air.LOL These threads open up the door to getting blasted. I was in the mood to take a shot at getting blasted this morning. The truth is if I owned the OP's car 5W30 is what I'd have in the sump, and I wouldn't look back.
Probably all the people who say: You must follow the oil viscosity in your owners manual because the engineers who built the car know more than you do - the people who say that probably haven't woken up yet this morning.
I'm in.!
Just sayin'!
I fully trust "The Car Care Nut". Please keep an open mind and watch his videos. He is one of the most smart and honest mechanics I've ever seen. He gives 30 minute videos, where he shows you how to remove Toyota engines, and rebuild them. He also gives advice on every generation and model of Toyota as to the common problems he's seen in each model and what models to buy and not buy. Even though I currently don't own a Toyota, a lot of his advice applies to Honda's too, and I own 4 Hondas. His has extensive experience as a ASE Master Diagnostic mechanic. He is a great resource for very knowledgeable and honest advice.Just sayin'!
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I think one of the major points in the viscosity discussion is the actual temperature of the oil in operation. If the oil temp stays steady, then as the guys towing with 0W20 have seen, the oil will perform just fine.
But if the oil temp is slightly higher, then that oil is slightly thinner. So, if I knew the oil would stay at say, 90C, then I would be fine with the -20. But if the oil under hard use gets up to, say, 105C, then a -30 will offer close to the same film thickness at that temp that the -20 had at the lower temp.
What was really interesting about having an oil temp gauge on my Volvo (I know, another Volvo story from me) when I had it in Colorado was the relationship between oil temp, coolant temp and outside air temp. It wasn’t what I expected, and, I would surmise, what other people think.
The car had a turbocharger (initially oil cooled, later, upgraded to water cooled) and a large, external, thermostat-controlled oil cooler adjacent to the radiator.
In the winter, with weather below freezing, even below zero, the oil took a long time to warm, but it always ran at about 85C, the thermostat opening temp.
In the summer, even when the temperature was close to 100F outside, the oil ran at 90C. Not much of an operating temperature difference, really, despite the huge variation in outside air temp. Different than the assumptions most people make, and clearly the result of a good oil cooling set up from the manufacturer.
But, and here’s my point about being able to monitor temp with a gauge, no matter the outside air temp, when I used the engine hard (climbing up I-70 to go skiing, for example) the oil temp would rise up to about 105C. Part of this was the nature of that engine, with the turbo putting a lot of heat into the oil. No matter how they’re cooled, turbos put significant heat into the oil.
I saw nearly 115C when pulling a big trailer with the car, in the humid summer heat of Virginia. It was on Route 13, on the Eastern Shore. Lots of stop lights, reducing air flow over the oil cooler, and lots of heavy throttle acceleration to get the car/trailer up to speed.
There was a significant change in oil pressure across the RPM range with that range of oil temps. I really do wish for better gauges to include oil temp and pressure.
In the absence of gauges, in the absence of knowing how hard use (again, trailering) affects the oil temp of the engine in the Tundra, going up one grade provides a bit of “headroom” should the oil temp climb above normal.
The language in the owners manual says exactly that - it says, “The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions.”
So, yeah, on the Tundra, I run 5W30.
It‘s cheaper, easier to find, and covers that potential higher oil temp situation provided for in the owners manual.
Now, I run exactly the specified viscosity in the half dozen other cars, all with turbochargers, because their OM viscosity specification doesn’t say anything about going up a grade for hard use. They all have oil coolers, too. The Volvos are coolant/oil, while the Mercedes are external air/oil, but they’re all fitted with oil coolers.
But if the oil temp is slightly higher, then that oil is slightly thinner. So, if I knew the oil would stay at say, 90C, then I would be fine with the -20. But if the oil under hard use gets up to, say, 105C, then a -30 will offer close to the same film thickness at that temp that the -20 had at the lower temp.
What was really interesting about having an oil temp gauge on my Volvo (I know, another Volvo story from me) when I had it in Colorado was the relationship between oil temp, coolant temp and outside air temp. It wasn’t what I expected, and, I would surmise, what other people think.
The car had a turbocharger (initially oil cooled, later, upgraded to water cooled) and a large, external, thermostat-controlled oil cooler adjacent to the radiator.
In the winter, with weather below freezing, even below zero, the oil took a long time to warm, but it always ran at about 85C, the thermostat opening temp.
In the summer, even when the temperature was close to 100F outside, the oil ran at 90C. Not much of an operating temperature difference, really, despite the huge variation in outside air temp. Different than the assumptions most people make, and clearly the result of a good oil cooling set up from the manufacturer.
But, and here’s my point about being able to monitor temp with a gauge, no matter the outside air temp, when I used the engine hard (climbing up I-70 to go skiing, for example) the oil temp would rise up to about 105C. Part of this was the nature of that engine, with the turbo putting a lot of heat into the oil. No matter how they’re cooled, turbos put significant heat into the oil.
I saw nearly 115C when pulling a big trailer with the car, in the humid summer heat of Virginia. It was on Route 13, on the Eastern Shore. Lots of stop lights, reducing air flow over the oil cooler, and lots of heavy throttle acceleration to get the car/trailer up to speed.
There was a significant change in oil pressure across the RPM range with that range of oil temps. I really do wish for better gauges to include oil temp and pressure.
In the absence of gauges, in the absence of knowing how hard use (again, trailering) affects the oil temp of the engine in the Tundra, going up one grade provides a bit of “headroom” should the oil temp climb above normal.
The language in the owners manual says exactly that - it says, “The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions.”
So, yeah, on the Tundra, I run 5W30.
It‘s cheaper, easier to find, and covers that potential higher oil temp situation provided for in the owners manual.
Now, I run exactly the specified viscosity in the half dozen other cars, all with turbochargers, because their OM viscosity specification doesn’t say anything about going up a grade for hard use. They all have oil coolers, too. The Volvos are coolant/oil, while the Mercedes are external air/oil, but they’re all fitted with oil coolers.
I'm pretty sure nobody at Ford would wind that back for my Focus if they still sold the Focus here. Either way I didn't lose out as my car is happily bee-bopping' along at 10 years/125K on 5W20....pure luck I suppose running that 20W.
I believe Ford is saying 5W30 now for the 5.0 in the Mustang correct? Quite a different scenario a 450hp sports car vs. a 165hp economy car. Surprised Toyota recommends 0W20 for the GR Supra and Corolla....both power-dense sports cars. C8 Vette gets 0W40.
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So run the higher-grade oils then, you can do that without moving.
I think that's basically most of BITOG based on most of these threads that fall into thick vs. thin discussions....no need to worry.
Eh, this guy isn't all he's cracked up to be. Lots of info that is based on gut feel vs. data for the few videos I watched. No different than most other youtube mechanics I've seen.
Yes, but it's his experience that matters. He's opened up hundreds of engines. So his opinion is based on real world experience.
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He’s entertaining and informative.
But he makes this mistake, often: he assumes all the cars were properly maintained.
I see the trashed interiors, the crappy paint, mismatched tires, and know the owners weren’t careful.
So, when he makes pronouncements based on his experience, I know his sample is a subset of cars, that are neglected and abused.
Honestly, you can’t draw conclusions from that sample set that you can then apply to a well-maintained car. Doesn’t work that way, either from common sense or statistics. An abused subset of cars on the road are no predictor of how well-maintained cars will work.
He talks about long oil change intervals causing problems. That’s specious, because those cars clearly didn’t have an owner that followed the intervals specified, so who knows what they actually had for intervals.
There are very few YouTube personalities that are anything beyond entertainment. They exist to make money on clicks. The more outrageous, outlandish, or inflammatory the claims, the more clicks, the more they make, and so, they keep upping the outrage because, frankly, it works.
I really cannot ever trust people whose entire business model is seeking attention.
Which in reality is often far from reality. People like to talk about "real world experience" but when it comes to drawing conclusions it's often an unreliable source of data since there are so many uncontrolled variables and unknowns. Almost no real research that yields reproducible and statistically significant results are made in the real world. You just can't do it.
It's one thing to form opinions based on what you see but often this is extrapolated into absolutes and as is seen in this specific example the conclusion is not correct.
We have an over reliance on UOA's. The car care nut mentions in his video's that UOA's may not be capturing the full picture on oil degredation on extended OCI's. I'm not saying he is right or wrong. I'm only saying we need to keep an open mind that the source of our data may not be complete or show the whole picture.
True, he will make more money with more clicks. But he doesn't title his video's with inflamatory titles.
Each viewer has to really watch the full 30 minutes to uncover the subtle insight he is providing.
In many of his engine teardown/rebuild videos, he mentions that he spoke to the owner of that car.
They followed the owners manual since new which is 10k OCI as recommended by the manufacturer.
Then he talks about how the engine is burning 2 quarts of oil every 1,000 miles, and his own opinion is the 10k OCI is too long.
Perhaps it could be the quality of oil at Toyota dealers and are getting the cheapest bulk oil the dealership can find, so it might be an oil quality issue and not an OCI issue. But I think it's helpful just to keep an open mind on all information available.
I have a bad habit of discrediting and discounting ideas which I don't agree with. Many of us may do the same. I've learned It's good to always keep an open mind.
As was mentioned above, so many variables make the "real world" stuff pretty hard to interpret. And yes, most folks don't seem to understand what a UOA can and can't tell you.
B/c for everyone of those engines he tears down that showed excessive oil consumption etc. there are multiple more engines that didn't have that issue so how does that work? It's because there are many other variables at play making this comparision between that car/engine and the viewers nearly impossible.
I've seen and looked at a lot of UOA's on this site.
But, it would be helpful for many of us to learn more on what a UOA can and can't tell us.
Please provide more info on this.
I'd say this site is full of commentary to answer your questions with some reading.
Bottom line for me: UOAs are a valuable tool to track how your engine is running/doing but without a lot of them to develop trends, they are nearly worthless as they used here on BITOG which is typically "I ran XYZ oil and here is a single UOA...I think I'll switch to ABC oil b/c my UOA showed JKH. XYZ oil is not a good oil based on a slight up-tick in wear metals etc." or thereabouts. What do you think UOAs tell you? You can search my name/posts and find some good info on how I use UOAs in my Sportwagen that has been helpful and actually showed (among other data such as a filter observations, noises, etc. a bad timing chain tensioner). I have some nice graphs showing trends across multiple oils. There is entire post in the UOA section that explains their use...have you read that?
Edit. Also good for fuel dilution evaluation (if the lab is giving good data) and how that impacts ending viscosity over an OCI. TBN is clearly a good way to see how long you can push an OCI. Lots of good info but again, doesn't really tell you that oil 1 is better than oil 2 generically. Just my $0.02.
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