CAFE and 5W-20 - The Truth

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I don't even think he needs to do all that. If the trending is/was downward anyway ..just how much "further proof" is there to switch hitting with any oil/visc/whatever??

What Jaymus will NEVER know is how that same OCI would have done on 5w-20. Would it have also been "cut in half"...and that he may be making a really big assumption here (if I read this correctly)??


..but seeing that Jaymus is setting up a trial/proof here ..and that he asserts that 5w-20 is all about fuel economy and not about protection ...does he have fuel economy increases to bolster that end of the assertion/assumption??

How much gas did you save, Jaymus??
 
I will know soon, as he said he is going to try 5W-20 again. Time will tell.

Although, I must ask you guys, do you think 5W-20 creates LESS wear than a 30 weight? Don't bring up -40 degree short trips. I'm talking 20F to 120F, whether it be drag racing, autocross, city driving, or plain old highway driving. Do you all believe that 5W-20 creates LESS wear than a 5W-30?

About fuel economy, I didn't save any gas, I wouldn't use 5W-20, myself. Although, I did try it in my sister's Civic once. I'm not saying 5W-20 makes big improvements on gas mileage, I'm saying CAFE and EPA thinks it does. It does, but only to a very small extent. Well... some claim 2mpg increase, but ya know, some see 'no increase' which is probably .2mpg.

This 1 UOA is not the best one to go by, I just know it riles up 5W-20 lovers. But, I still haven't seen a UOA where 5W-30 showed more wear than a 5W-20 of the same brand.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


What Jaymus will NEVER know is how that same OCI would have done on 5w-20. Would it have also been "cut in half"...and that he may be making a really big assumption here (if I read this correctly)??


Another Major +1

It very well could have shown better wear. . . .
 
Originally Posted By: 1999nick
Since this topic has once again been revisited, let me chime in with my usual comments and question.

Given that back in my younger days, the 1950's, when most cars were using a straight 20 weight oil and, in my case getting 140,000 miles out of a 1954 Ford V-8 with no signs of being worn out, do you think that today's 0W-20's and 5W-20's are less capable oils than those old 20 weights?

Nick

I had a 1952 flathead, inline 6.
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It got Kendal straight 40. Because oil was so expensive, 35 cents a quart, I would let the OCI stretch way out to 2000 miles on occasion.
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I do not know absolutely, for sue how many miles it had on it when I sold it, but I bought it in 1963 with 80 something thousand miles on it and it was, for close to two years, used by two people, on different shifts, about 40 miles a day, 6 days a week, plus hitting town on Saturday.
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

Art makes ti sound like there was some conspiracy to adopt 5w-20 at the expense of engine wear.


What conspiracy? I only asked you folks if the CAFE argument is reasonably true. I'm a 5W-20 user and I have nothing against it.
The reason I added the comment about back specs was because it contradicts the CAFE argument.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
I only asked you folks if the CAFE argument is reasonably true.


Alright, my bad. But in general, yes, 5w-20 was adopted because of CAFE.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
PP 5W-20 and Valvoline 5W-30, but the thicker oil returned a better UOA. It's probably still on page one of the UOA section. I'll look for it tomorrow.


two back to back UOA with different viscosities and different brands. MEANINGLESS.

I think we've concluded here long ago that CAFE was the primary reason for modern 5w-20 oils but it does not increase engine wear, as demonstrated by UOA, and evidence from people who have posted about fleet use, to include police agencies, who have used 5w-20 and vehicles are still running A-OK with hundreds of thousands of miles. We have some posters here who have well over 100,000 miles on vehicles that have used only 5w-20.

Art makes ti sound like there was some conspiracy to adopt 5w-20 at the expense of engine wear. That's a fallacy IMO.

In addition, modern engine designs that utilize many hydraulically operated mechanisms to include timing chain tensioners, variable valve timing actuators, and cylinder deactivation systems, won't run correctly on anything thicker then 5w-20.

Use 5w-20 with confidence in any engine speced for it.


It's not that far fetched that a manufacturer would spec a 20wt despite extra wear if it means only going 200,000 instead of 400,000 miles.

I'm not buying that a 20wt has to be used for cylinder deactivation, vtec, etc to work. Maybe a straight 60wt in a car spec'd for 0w-20 might cause a problem but running a 30wt will not harm a thing. I remember everyone telling me vtec wouldn't work on my TL at all with a straight 30wt yet it works while the oil is still cold and thick.
 
Dodge has a TSB out for the cylinder deactivation system for the HEMIs. It won't work with anything but 5w-20, and customers were complaining it wasn't working when they were using other then 5w-20.
 
A simple expectation. If you put a label or mark on your oil bottle, it better meet or exceed all of the criteria to meet that label, be that viscosity, Sequance test or cold crank numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Dodge has a TSB out for the cylinder deactivation system for the HEMIs. It won't work with anything but 5w-20, and customers were complaining it wasn't working when they were using other then 5w-20.



So what happens when you have a driver in Canada with a light right foot running 5w-20 that never gets thinner than a 30wt?

This is the part that makes no sense to me, how can it be that sensitive?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Dodge has a TSB out for the cylinder deactivation system for the HEMIs. It won't work with anything but 5w-20, and customers were complaining it wasn't working when they were using other then 5w-20.



So what happens when you have a driver in Canada with a light right foot running 5w-20 that never gets thinner than a 30wt?

This is the part that makes no sense to me, how can it be that sensitive?


21.gif
There are some threads here discussing the HEMI and 5w-20. Perhaps it only starts working when the oil comes up to temp.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Dodge has a TSB out for the cylinder deactivation system for the HEMIs. It won't work with anything but 5w-20, and customers were complaining it wasn't working when they were using other then 5w-20.



So what happens when you have a driver in Canada with a light right foot running 5w-20 that never gets thinner than a 30wt?

This is the part that makes no sense to me, how can it be that sensitive?


21.gif
There are some threads here discussing the HEMI and 5w-20. Perhaps it only starts working when the oil comes up to temp.


I'll look up those threads for my own education. My only point is that if it requires a 5w-20 to work, you would be too close to the threshold of not working in cold climates when not working it hard.

Off-topic but they sound very weird in cylinder decativation mode with aftermarket exhaust.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Dodge has a TSB out for the cylinder deactivation system for the HEMIs. It won't work with anything but 5w-20, and customers were complaining it wasn't working when they were using other then 5w-20.



"minimum and maximum oil pressure limits for cylinder deactivation and reactivation were established at 75 psi and 18 psi"

*http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1266926.html?page=4

I think it would work with a 30 or 40 weight. Many users have reported that going from a 30 to 40 weight only gives 3-4 psi when warm. May not apply to EVERY vehicle, but it's not that big of a difference in cst. It's not a magical system that "knows" you are cheating with a 5W-30, lol by doing an internal oil analysis.

The Hemi says, "Would you like a TBN test with that?"
 
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
It's not a magical system that "knows" you are cheating with a 5W-30, lol by doing an internal oil analysis.



That's great.
 
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
In effect CAFE has caused oilformulators to up their game. I thank the CAFE requirements for causing this chain of events.


Interesting point. CAFE is a goal and 5W-20 a tool. One that gets better all the time. It's so good now that it's the optimum choice for certain vehicles.
 
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