Moving from 0W-20 to 5W-30 in late model Toyotas

[Rogueman2016s]

if oil is getting too “thin” why don’t vehicle manufacturers say no we’re sticking with a specific grade and that’s it? Do automakers get some kudos for switching? I’ll use Subaru for example they recently started to thirst for 0w16. I’m perfectly fine content and have total confidence in 0w20 and now it’s starting to look foolish and be a joke “0w16-0w8” . Just finish it off already.. do we need a winter spec and any weight., why not just a label that reads 100% synthetic motor oil all weather for all engines it is a joke what America likes to sell

 

[tolian21]

Do automakers get some kudos for switching?

Absolutely, CAFE compliance has its benefits.

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

if oil is getting too “thin” why don’t vehicle manufacturers say no we’re sticking with a specific grade and that’s it? Do automakers get some kudos for switching? I’ll use Subaru for example they recently started to thirst for 0w16. I’m perfectly fine content and have total confidence in 0w20 and now it’s starting to look foolish and be a joke “0w16-0w8” . Just finish it off already.. do we need a winter spec and any weight., why not just a label that reads 100% synthetic motor oil all weather for all engines it is a joke what America likes to sel

It's nit like the EPA is pushing for thinner lubricants, however, they are the low hanging fruit. It's easy enough to test, validate, calculate a relatively accurate life expectancy for the vehicle's drivetrain components, and sell. The fuel ecomy gains versus wear are minute, however, all that a manufacturer cares about is how that economy shows up as an average for the fleet of cars they're selling - CAFE.

Motor oil isn't the only lubricant in a vehicle that's becomming thinner and thinner. Pretty much every component of the deivetrain receives "updated" fluids every so often.

If the manufacturer doesn't meet the EPA CAFE requirements, they get penalized. Just ask Dodge how painful it is to keep offering those Scat Pack Chargers and Challengers, never mind the Hellcat.

If the manyfacturer meets the EPA CAFE requirements, they get credits.

The EPA randomly and ano anonymously buys new vehicles from dealerships and tests their fuel economy. That's why automakers have to strictly stick to lubricant recomendations. It's also a requirement of the EPA for the manufacturer to enforce these requirements. Of course, a lot of these requirements bump heads with consumer laws and rights.

I hope this makes more sense now.

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

Just how big do you think oil molecules are? The oil passages are not too narrow for a 50-grade. If that were the case then every engine would starve for oil at any temperature below normal operating temperature.

Sometimes there’s a lot of imagination about goes on in an engine.

The Pentastar family of engines are an exercise in "how cheap you can build an engine and it still sort of works". I didn't say that you can't use a 50-grade oil in it, I said I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know if you ever took one appart, but if you did, you would understand. For that particular engine a fuel economy or Euro 0/5W-30 or an Euro 0W-40 are a perfect middleground to get the most out of it. And yes, I saw the 626K mile Pentastar video, and I'm pretty sure that engine went through its fair share of rocker arms and lifters, plastic oil filter housings, and timing chains.

 

[kschachn]

The Pentastar family of engines are an exercise in "how cheap you can build an engine and it still sort of works". I didn't say that you can't use a 50-grade oil in it, I said I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know if you ever took one appart, but if you did, you would understand. For that particular engine a fuel economy or Euro 0/5W-30 or an Euro 0W-40 are a perfect middleground to get the most out of it. And yes, I saw the 626K mile Pentastar video, and I'm pretty sure that engine went through its fair share of rocker arms and lifters, plastic oil filter housings, and timing chains.

What you said was:

And yes, you can safely use a 0W-40 or 5W-40 in a 3.6 Pentastar PUG engine. Though I wouldn't recommend anything beyond that, because they made some of the oil passages relatively narrow.

It has nothing to do with oil passages being “narrow” as I noted with temperature. And it also has nothing to do with “tolerances”.

 

[ka9mnx]

And it also has nothing to do with “tolerances”.

Most OEM engines share tolerances. But not clearances.

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

Most OEM engines share tolerances. But not clearances.

Yes, that's very true. In the case of the Pentastar, it's also the weak vane-type variable displacement oil pump that's a concern. It defaults to pushing all it can when you start the engine, then the computer switches on a solenoid that cuts the oil pressure down to less than half. However, it struggles with oil that's too thick.

What you said was:


It has nothing to do with oil passages being “narrow” as I noted with temperature. And it also has nothing to do with “tolerances”.

Without data, I'm just a person with an opinion. The same goes for you. I don't have any additional data to support my opinions beyond the published engine specs I talked about earlier. What I do have, however, is practical experience with the Pentastar engines. I didn't even get to try 15W-50 in one, because when we tried 15W-40 in one, it idled very roughly; the engine was struggling with it. It's one thing to debate theory and opinions, another to try things in practice. A 15W-40 is considerably thicker than a 0W-40 or 5W-40 when cold. The Pentastar just can't run it. It's even worse if you're in a cold climate. Never mind a 15W-50.

Now, if we're talking about a HEMI, that's entirely different. A HEMI will be able to run a 15W-40 or 15W-50 without issue, within the allowed cold temperatures specific for a 15W-XX motor oil. The Pentastar is a cheaply made V6 engine that has a lot of limitations. It was designed to make Chrysler a lot of money, without any regard for how long it lasts or what kind of hurdles owners have to deal with. Just try replacing the oil filter housing on the PUG. The job can make a grown man cry because of how careful you have to be with all the brittle plastic bits that you can't buy from Mopar. As a bonus, they attached the fuel injector harness to the rear bottom of the lower intake manifold using a fir tree zip tie that you have to cut and then pull out. If you're doing the job on a RAM 1500, Jeep GC, or Durango, you will get mad trying to get that off without damaging anything.

The Pentastar has all the disadvantages of a HEMI engine, without any of the advantages.

 

[Chief119]

I would not use 0w40 in a Toyota under warranty in the US. It isn’t listed in the manual.

In other parts of the world, I believe 15w50 is an acceptable choice if the climate allows.

The owners manual in Toyota clearly states that during extreme conditions a high viscosity may be used.

 

[dlundblad]

The owners manual in Toyota clearly states that during extreme conditions a high viscosity may be used.

The verbiage for our 4R says something like “going up a grade.” One grade above a 20 is a 30. I won’t deviate from that with a warranty.

 

[Rogueman2016s]

Yes, that's very true. In the case of the Pentastar, it's also the weak vane-type variable displacement oil pump that's a concern. It defaults to pushing all it can when you start the engine, then the computer switches on a solenoid that cuts the oil pressure down to less than half. However, it struggles with oil that's too thick.


Without data, I'm just a person with an opinion. The same goes for you. I don't have any additional data to support my opinions beyond the published engine specs I talked about earlier. What I do have, however, is practical experience with the Pentastar engines. I didn't even get to try 15W-50 in one, because when we tried 15W-40 in one, it idled very roughly; the engine was struggling with it. It's one thing to debate theory and opinions, another to try things in practice. A 15W-40 is considerably thicker than a 0W-40 or 5W-40 when cold. The Pentastar just can't run it. It's even worse if you're in a cold climate. Never mind a 15W-50.

Now, if we're talking about a HEMI, that's entirely different. A HEMI will be able to run a 15W-40 or 15W-50 without issue, within the allowed cold temperatures specific for a 15W-XX motor oil. The Pentastar is a cheaply made V6 engine that has a lot of limitations. It was designed to make Chrysler a lot of money, without any regard for how long it lasts or what kind of hurdles owners have to deal with. Just try replacing the oil filter housing on the PUG. The job can make a grown man cry because of how careful you have to be with all the brittle plastic bits that you can't buy from Mopar. As a bonus, they attached the fuel injector harness to the rear bottom of the lower intake manifold using a fir tree zip tie that you have to cut and then pull out. If you're doing the job on a RAM 1500, Jeep GC, or Durango, you will get mad trying to get that off without damaging anything.

The Pentastar has all the disadvantages of a HEMI engine, without any of the advantages.

And I know many pentastar’s that are trouble free. You poorly maintain and wring the pee pee out of any engine you’ll get problems.

 

[tblt44]

If it was mine I would have went 5w 30 at the end of warrenty.

 

[GSCJR]

The 2GR-FE called for 5w-30 as far back as 2007. My colleague had a 2007 Sienna that I used to maintain, it had 5w-30 printed on the oil cap. I'm currently using 5w-30 in my 2010 2GR-FE.

 

[proveitwithdata]

any timing issues, vvti issues with thicker oi?

 

[GSCJR]

Negative

 

[supton]

any timing issues, vvti issues with thicker oi?

Don’t forget, oil thickness is dependent upon temperature. Going from well below freezing to the approximately boiling point of water has a huge swing in thickness. The vvt and ecu have to accommodate for that at every temperature the engine might run at.

 

[tolian21]

The 2GR-FE called for 5w-30 as far back as 2007. My colleague had a 2007 Sienna that I used to maintain, it had 5w-30 printed on the oil cap. I'm currently using 5w-30 in my 2010 2GR-FE.

Apparently Toyota released a memo to dealers that they can put 0w-20 into older 2GR-FE.

 

[NotEntertained]

Who here has switched to 5W-30 from years of using 0W-20 in their Toyota/Lexus engines that call for 0W-20

Dumped the factory fill on my 2023 Tacoma TRD Off-Road at 300 miles and went with Mobil1 ESP 0W30. Did another change at 1500 miles. I like it. Might run 0W40 in the summer. ACEA C3 oils are my favorite.

 

[GSCJR]

Apparently Toyota released a memo to dealers that they can put 0w-20 into older 2GR-FE.

Correct

My 2010 has 0w-20 on the cap, BTW.

 

[tolian21]

Correct

My 2010 has 0w-20 on the cap, BTW.

My es350 2012 has 5w-30 on the cap, but there is a memo from Toyota to dealerships that they can use either 5w-30 or 0w-20 for my car.

 

[dihi22]

Who here has switched to 5W-30 from years of using 0W-20 in their Toyota/Lexus engines that call for 0W-20?

I have 3 Toyota/Lexus vehicles that all call for 0W-20 and I have used nothing but that for 10 years since my first Toyota in 2014. I have had zero issues with 0W-20. I have 177k miles on my bought-new Tundra using it, initially I used Mobil-1, about the 70k mile mark I started using Kirkland oil from Costco. My consumption went from 1+ quart over 6-8k miles to nearly zero across a 5+ OCI.

I have used Kirkland in my LX570 since I bought it, 2 years ago and we've put about 25k miles on it.

I have used it in my 2015 RX350, bought at 160k miles, currently has 223k miles on it.

No, there is no reason to change. I know that's the first response.

But I have read several people of late posting on social media in various places about how they have switched to 5W-30. I haven't gone looking for this. I have noticed through the years and most people state this is what's used in these same vehicles outside North America.

i find it interesting that you say that you went from 1 qt to near zero consumption. Was that with the move from 0w-20 to 5w-30? or just the brand switch to costco from mobil 1. Were you using the M1 advanced FS, or was it the extended verions or High mileage version?