Analysis: PEA in different cleaners (Techron, Archoil, Oilsyn, Pro-Tec)

cadchris said:
For us beginners......what are the Nitrogen based cleaners:



https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/detergents-clean-engine-fuel-tips/

And, Molekule's explanation on PIBA.
L

Thread 'Polyisobutyleneamine (PIBA) DCA'

Hi,

I've been using a premium brand PEA with good results.

I have option to go to a brand using Polyisobutyleneamine (PIBA) DCA chemistry.

Anyone have any info or experience?
Click to expand...


Pedantic gripes about the Gumout marketing video: PIB does not contain nitrogen, and Ethanol is not an acid.

(From what I can tell) PIB and PIBSA do not contain amines, so they--and other cleaners including alcohols and methylated benzenes--would not be indicated via bromophenol blue. However, detergents like PIBA and TEA (triethylamine) would. Despite the test's limitations, I feel that quick field tests are valuable, and appreciate all the product tests that urman has done.

If you could find out how to get BG #995DCA kits, many nerds on this forum would likely be interested.
 
Wow, what a slip up from their chemists who certainly wrote that dialog, or it was transcribed wrong. I guess it's something the class action lawyers who probably read this forum would've jumped on if their was recourse.
Another thing I question in that video:
Can.... "PEA bonds to metal surfaces preventing future build up".......?
Only thing I remember bonding to metal was tetraethlylead.

I couldn't find that member Pedantic & the discussion.
 
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DeeSull said:
Thanks for testing all these products and sharing your findings!

Archoil AR6900P is marketed for adding more detergents to fuel at every fill-up--what some folks here call a "maintenance dose."

Would you be willing to do more tests on AR6900P?

I want to understand how much detergent is added to the fuel at various treatment levels.

It would be interesting and helpful to see three tests done back-to-back:
  • baseline fuel: titrate 10 ml sample of regular fuel
  • 1:1000: 1 ml of AR6900P in 1 liter of the baseline fuel, then titrate a 10 ml sample (this is their "standard treatment" dose)
  • 1:500: 2 ml of AR6900P in 1 liter of the baseline fuel, then titrate a 10 ml sample

Thank you!

Щиро дякую!​

Click to expand...
It’s just mathematic and proportion!
So if you will increase the 2x (1:500) you will have 2x “drops” in your tank. I didn’t done it with 6900p, but tested other product, concentration 2x increases the result with the same proportion.
So you can just use 1:500!
 
I use either Techron or Gumout Regane before an oil change. Is one better than the other? I'm not sure if this test is showing Techron (at 100 drops to change color) means it's good or bad?
 
Gumout Regane CFSC is better than the US version of Techron according to testing performed by @urman. It's the Belgian version of Techron that outperformed the Gumout Regane CFSC @pbm.
 
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GSCJR said:
Gumout Regane CFSC is better than the US version of Techron according to testing performed by @urman. It's the Belgian version of Techron that outperformed the Gumout Regane CFSC @pbm.
Click to expand...
Is Regane 'CFSC' the small (6 oz. I think) bottle (which is what I use). I know the 'All in One' is more concentrated but my gas tanks are 12 and 15 gallons so I go with the small bottle. Amazon has the high mileage Regane for $30 for the case of 6....it's supposed to have more PEA than the regular Regane.
 
cadchris said:
Wow, what a slip up from their chemists who certainly wrote that dialog, or it was transcribed wrong. I guess it's something the class action lawyers who probably read this forum would've jumped on if their was recourse.
Another thing I question in that video:
Can.... "PEA bonds to metal surfaces preventing future build up".......?
Only thing I remember bonding to metal was tetraethlylead.
Click to expand...
I think you're griping about a marketing video.
They are describing the main types of engine cleaners in reasonable detail and clearly state PIB is less favorable one.
Ethanol does oxidize to form acids which are problematic for fuel systems.
 
urman said:
It’s just mathematic and proportion!
So if you will increase the 2x (1:500) you will have 2x “drops” in your tank. I didn’t done it with 6900p, but tested other product, concentration 2x increases the result with the same proportion.
So you can just use 1:500!
Click to expand...
Yes, I've done the math. I was hoping to see some more data that backs up the math and the testing methods.
 
cadchris said:
Another thing I question in that video:
Can.... "PEA bonds to metal surfaces preventing future build up".......?
Only thing I remember bonding to metal was tetraethlylead.
Click to expand...
I suspect that the scientists working for additive companies roll their eyes at the marketing materials, and respond, "Yeah, sure. That's close enough."
 
DeeSull said:
If you could find out how to get BG #995DCA kits, many nerds on this forum would likely be interested.
Click to expand...
It was quite complicated task for me. The first kit I’ve found in… russia… I had business trips in Azerbaijan and few colleagues from russia there. So I asked to buy in russia and bring me it to Azerbaijan. And the second kit I found in Czech Republic, but I guess it was the last in the EU
 
DeeSull said:
Pedantic gripes about the Gumout marketing video: PIB does not contain nitrogen, and Ethanol is not an acid.

(From what I can tell) PIB and PIBSA do not contain amines, so they--and other cleaners including alcohols and methylated benzenes--would not be indicated via bromophenol blue. However, detergents like PIBA and TEA (triethylamine) would. Despite the test's limitations, I feel that quick field tests are valuable, and appreciate all the product tests that urman has done.

If you could find out how to get BG #995DCA kits, many nerds on this forum would likely be interested.
Click to expand...

O.k......I went on a mission to find that kit. Now I remember how unfriendly the whole BG company was at a consumer level to get info, or even get in contact the company, so they gave me 1 distributor in S. Fl who wouldn't even talk to me, so I called corporate & told them how I was treated & the bad flavor I had going back 35yrs ago trying to buy their products for our fleet of delivery trucks & car fleet & I refused to ever buy a BG product until now since I also have a special project that affects many classic car injection systems & I wanted to speak to someone, anyone, to see if they specifically target that market with known historical injection issues..... Anyway, still irritated, so corporate gave me a distributor who she said was very nice.

The Fuel Test Kit is still available & can be bought thru SuncoastBG in Florida. About $365 per kit.......

I told him about the additive test thread here & to get ready to sell out of test kits fast!😂

I had a long conversation with the owner Duane who was pretty nice & I had him confirm he will sell this kit to "anyone", & he said "YES"!

He said the kits are really popular with Susuki dealers & outboard warranty claims that are happening. I asked how they were using the kits for warranty claims, but he wasn't sure. He also said they run fuel classes testing different gas-stations & confirmed that Costco had the highest results which surprised him, & also Shell.

I told him there was a Fuel brand thread here on BITOG that said the same, so that was Interesting that the BG kit might not be BS!
For whatever results it provides...

I hope this can help all the BITOG Mad Scientists out there, & again special thanks to Urman for being our "Back Channel European Connection"!😎
 
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cadchris said:
The Fuel Test Kit is still available & can be bought thru SuncoastBG in Florida. About $365 per kit.......

I told him about the additive test thread here & to get ready to sell out of test kits fast!😂
Click to expand...
I'm curious about the nitrogen concentration in fuels and additives, but $365 exceeds my level of curiosity.
 
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I finally dug up my old chemistry lab textbooks. Hard to believe how much I've forgotten. The contents of the two bottles might be quite straightforward.

Indicator B is a probably a Bromophenol Blue (~0.01% or less) indicator in an acetate buffer (~0.01-0.1M acetic acid [vinegar], plus sodium acetate [salt & vinegar potato chip flavoring]) adjusted to a pH of 3.6-3.9. Possibly some alcohol to make it more soluble in fuel. I suspect the Indicator B solution smells slightly of vinegar, and wonder if it smells of alcohol.

Titrant A is probably just dilute Hydrochloric Acid ( ~0.01M, probably a lot less). If you put a drop of it on baking soda, it should react and fizz up a lot.

When I have some free time, maybe I'll dig up my volumetric glassware and order some reagents.
 
urman said:
Are you sure it’s the same kit? PN 995DCA Cost around 100$
Click to expand...
urman said:
Are you sure it’s the same kit? PN 995DCA Cost around 100$
Click to expand...
Sorry I didn't answer you this week.....bad health. Now the more I thought about my conversation with that BGSuncoast Distributor & coming across another video of a different BG tester that tests fuel specific gravity with a fuel hydrometer, test tubes, thermometer, & case.
This kit is about $350, # BGU995
https://hd.snapon.com/item-detail.aspx?itemid=61620144&PrevGroup_Name=Dynamometers&PrevGroup_Id=88

So, there is no way that Fuel Additive Test Kit BG 995DCA costs that much! This guy was just rushed & distracted with business & when i asked about the Fuel Additive Test Kit & the specific part#, he mentioned he sells them to Suzuki dealers for Outboard Warranty Claims. I couldn't figure out why the hell, an Additive Test Kit would be used for warranty claims.... & said he didn't know????🤔 I thought, well its your business to know!

So he must've thought I meant Fuel Hydrometer Kit instead of the Fuel Additive Test kit. After all, this is Flor'Dah!🙄

I was trying to get him to call his BG Corporate Tech Line or Lab with very specific questions about Bosch K- Jets very unique system that I think really needs a unique & multiple chemistry's to clean & protect it. He didn't know anything about the Bosch K-Jet & he was looking up the system while on the phone with me playing "The BG 20 Questions Game" so that was disappointing & it goes back to my original issues with BG that their distributors are not trained on all injection systems let alone are not chemists. They're Pitch Men! He wasn't going to contact the BG Lab about this system to confirm BG's compatibility with Bosch K-Jet & how sensitive that system is, but just recommended a few BG products that filled my specific requirements that I believe the Bosch K- Jet needs for all Bosch CIS K-Jetronic Systems that I am doing research for......& will continue to do by other avenues like a dedicated thread here.

Anyway, I will be emailing him to confirm the price of the BG 995DCA ADDITIVE TEST KIT & its availabluibity to purchase! I can't find distributors who sell it & now I bet that kit is NOT for sale & is a "Sales Demo Pitch Man Tool". Something tells me DeJevu is happening here & I did this same inquiry 10-15 yrs ago on this forum!🤔😲

If I haven't bored everyone, I found a few very interesting BG DEMO Fuel Additive Testing Videos last week like Urman has done, & will add them to this post in a few minutes. They are worth watching.

BG U.K. Fuel Additive Test Kit Explanation:




B.G. U.K. BG44K Acid Demo. ( He states he uses Sulfuric Acid. However it doesn't change the color of the fuel like the Titration Additive, so the Titration Additive isn't Sulfuric Acid).🤔




B.G. Northwest U.S.A. Demo of Liqui Moly Jectron vs. BG44K.
He mentions he is using Costco Pump Gas. It seems to have a high concentration of additives as was discussed & suspected on another thread that Costco maintains quality control of their fuel & adds the Detergent Package on location from what I remember reading on that other thread here. Also he remarks that BG44K is now private labeled for GM & Motorcraft which I thought was Interesting. It seems that the o.e. is trying to run the BG name out of the dealerships after all these years!🤔
They probably got sick of their business models being pushed by dealers & onto customers who also maybe got turned off, unless the private label is being used internally for warranty claims at a discounted bulk priced chemical treatment. Its something like that I'm sure.




B.G. Northwest U.S.A. Demo:




Official BG Additive Test Kit instructions:

https://www.bgprod.com/reference/deposit-control-additive-in-fuel-test-kit/
 
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So in the 1st video above (at the 2:35 mark) ,this Gent says Shell's gas Amine's will only clean valve & injectors & will leave behind deposit's in the combustion chamber because it has no Nitrogen based PEA's, only other forums of Nitrogen based cleaners. 🤔 So I think the fall back is based on each products msds & use the minimum listed on the range, but now I hear many companies are redacting the PEA concentration or not listing it at all somehow? Probably because of the BG Test Kit Demo helps everyone boost their results according to this kit. Maybe we should start an Additive PEA Boycotte Black List of those who don't list PEA concentration, so that might get their attention. I think maybe find products that list highest PEA & use it at its most highest recommended dosage, if that makes sense, or buy what's on sale that lists PEA & use it every fill up if expense is an issue.
 
I see Polyolefin alkyl phenol alkyl amine listed at the 7-13% but I don't think that is the same as PEA - polyether amine...did I miss where Seafoam has PEA???

Bill
 
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