Comparison of cylinder and fuel injection cleaners

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I have used the Neutra as a gas additive in my cars and four cycle mowers and 2 cycle as well. So far used in once in the crankcase.

On two cycle and for cycle lawn equip it is truly great stuff. Much smoother running but the 2 cycles just start so much easier now. I add it to my gas can and it goes into all my lawn equip 100% of the time.

On the cars, well, because I use the Amsoil PI on almost every tankful I really did not see any changes but they were operating fine at the time of the add.

In the crankcase, I was very pleasantly surprised. It not only cleaned the valve cover up and varnish within but it has stopped seals from seeping (Amsoil is used) in at least two areas, something I have been trying to do for over a year now. As a result I will be adding it to the crankcase of at least two more engines just about 500 miles prior to scheduled change.

I purchased a case but it is going down with more uses for this stuff.
 
quote:

Originally posted by SSLoneStar:
What were the results on the Lucas cleaner ?
I`ve been impressed with it for some time now.

SS/LS


If you're asking me, I didn't compare the Lucas cleaner. I only compared OTC brands I found in local stores.
 
Spector, I bought a gallon jug of nuetra. Cheaper that way, I think.
smile.gif


--- Bror Jace
 
quote:

Originally posted by Weatherlite:
All of these cleaners you guys are talking about are designed as fuel system cleaners right? Do these have any effect on carbon that has already built up in the CC?

Yes, some do. Read the last half of the last paragraph in the first post in this thread. It mentions that organic amines (that decompose nylon) are currently the best cylinder cleaners. My own "GUESS" is that some solvents, like N-methyl pyrollidone, which do a good job of breaking up lumps of soot into microscopic pieces may also help break it up in the cylinders. This is a solvent that you definitely do NOT want to put in your gas tank though. It has a high boiling point and I think that when sprayed into the intake so that it hits intake valve deposits directly before going into the cylinder I believe it will hang around to break up valve deposits longer than a lighter solvent which would evaporate from the surface faster. This is the only way I would use it. I have no proof of this, it's only my guess based on what I've seen of its properties. In any case, unless you can order from a chemical supply house, you won't see it anywhere. Dimethylformamide probably acts similarly. It is used to clean carbonaceous deposits at times, though I've never seen it as an ingredient in any product. It might be called as a "proprietary" ingredient and so not be specifically listed for people to see.

Another technique some people use to blow carbon out of cylinders is to spray some water into the intake. Revving the engine may be necessary to keep it going. I've seen people do this and have done it myself without any problems. Just don't add so much water that you kill, and possibly hydrolock, the engine. You may see soot and steam come out your exhaust.
 
Anyone tried or analyzed BG 44K?

I'm curious how it compares to others analyzed in this thread. I've heard a number of good comments about it, but no actual analysis, etc.

Thanks!

[ November 12, 2002, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
The reason I asked is because I had some really good results from useing the Lucas* in my 01 LS1.
The common LS1 blow-by and wet trottle body/intake etc,etc was cleaned very well after one bottle(full tank of 93*)I mean the vapor tube/line was even cleaned out to the point of nearly new(rifle bore cleaning swab)which prior to use was dripping oil.Good Stuff .....YUP !
Is there anything better ??? If so I would be interested in trying it because my LS1 surley wont stop it issues anytime soon.

SS/LS

SS/LS[/qb][/QUOTE]If you're asking me, I didn't compare the Lucas cleaner. I only compared OTC brands I found in local stores.[/QB]
 
Originally posted by Sciguyjim:
TEST RESULTS
RELATIVE EFFICIENCIES AT WHICH VARIOUS CLEANERS WILL DISSOLVE HIGH BOILING RESIDUES (tars) FROM GASOLINE AND CARBONACEOUS (decomposition) DEPOSITS FOUND IN USED MOTOR OIL, (10=BEST):

· 10 Gunk Gas Treatment
· 10 Toluene (a common ingredient)
· 9 Castrol Syntec Power System
· 8 Duralube Fuel System Cleaner
· 7 Gunk Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 6 Redline SI-1
· 5 Gunk Air Intake Cleaner
· 4 Naphtha (a common ingredient)
· 4 STP Fuel System Cleaner
· 4 Seafoam Motor Tuneup
· 4 Trak Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 4 STP Intake Valve Cleaner
· 4 CD-2 Emission Cure
· 4 Prolong Fuel System Treatment
· 3 CD-2 Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 3 Techron Concentrate
· 0.5 Butyl Cellosolve (a "COMMONLY" used "AUTO INDUSTRY DETERGENT" for oil and grease)

Hi,

I find it interesting the Techron is near the bottom of the list. I cannot make any claims for Techron but when it is mentioned others it is always in positive light. If you ever feel inclined to retest it I would be interested in results.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Boris740:
I find it interesting the Techron is near the bottom of the list. I cannot make any claims for Techron but when it is mentioned others it is always in positive light. If you ever feel inclined to retest it I would be interested in results.
Yes, this did not escape my attention. I, too, have heard some fairly remarkable anecdotal claims for its cleaning ability. A possible reason for this is that it works differently at engine temps than it does at room temp, specifically my kitchen temp. This can be said for all the cleaners tested. After all, I did not dismantle dozens of engines to compare results, I had to simplify the procedures significantly. The highest temps used during some tests was maybe 130°F to maybe 180°F. I was limited by the melting point of the plastic caps on the vials I used.

I also wondered why butyl cellosolve rated poorest of all when it is so commonly used as a cleaner throughout the auto industry. I've seen it on engine flushes and I assumed it helped remove water from the oil. It is one of the few solvents used which can mix with water to some extent.

A number of people have asked me to test specific products, but my kitchen is no longer set up as my lab so I am unable to continue these tests. I have saved some materials, and my notebooks, for future examination, but the tests were actually done a few years ago and most of the materials are long gone.

Remember, please do not make the mistake I made before I knew the strength of some of the products, that being, "if a little is good, a lot must be better". Use them as directed. The manufacturers did a lot more research than I did. I reported which solvents I've been able to use safely in large quantities. Don't expect to be able to use other OTC products in those same quantities. If something seems to work well for you, great, keep using it, otherwise, use my data to point you in another direction.
 
Originally posted by Sciguyjim:
TEST RESULTS
RELATIVE EFFICIENCIES AT WHICH VARIOUS CLEANERS WILL DISSOLVE HIGH BOILING RESIDUES (tars) FROM GASOLINE AND CARBONACEOUS (decomposition) DEPOSITS FOUND IN USED MOTOR OIL, (10=BEST):

· 10 Gunk Gas Treatment
· 10 Toluene (a common ingredient)
· 9 Castrol Syntec Power System
· 8 Duralube Fuel System Cleaner
· 7 Gunk Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 6 Redline SI-1
· 5 Gunk Air Intake Cleaner
· 4 Naphtha (a common ingredient)
· 4 STP Fuel System Cleaner
· 4 Seafoam Motor Tuneup
· 4 Trak Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 4 STP Intake Valve Cleaner
· 4 CD-2 Emission Cure
· 4 Prolong Fuel System Treatment
· 3 CD-2 Fuel Injector Cleaner
· 3 Techron Concentrate
· 0.5 Butyl Cellosolve (a "COMMONLY" used "AUTO INDUSTRY DETERGENT" for oil and grease)

Hi,

I find it interesting the Techron is near the bottom of the list. I cannot make any claims for Techron but when it is mentioned others it is always in positive light. If you ever feel inclined to retest it I would be interested in results.

[ November 10, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Boris740 ]
 
This was an interesting test however I've got a few trepidations. The test was done X number of years in the past. Seems the "problem" was that the gasoline additives caused decomposition of the nylon (sic) "sock" (I guess this is part of the filler tube?) of an unknown make of vehicle. This "sock" had previously been "attacked" by gasohol. The products of the decomposition then contaminated the fuel system and hypothetically caused fuel injector fouling. Also, another test was done on high boiling residues.

1. How does one know what polymer is being used in the "sock". If in fact nylon, what type of nylon, is it 6.6 nylon?

2. Polymer technology has continued to advance. It is a big deal using polymers in car applications as its a huge market. The polymer manufacturers do extensive and exhaustive testing on their products for automotive use. I'm not aware of any rash of failures in polymer products in contact with fuel or fuel additives. Heck, polymers are used as the container in most of the additive products.

3. Be interesting to repeat the test with the proper dilution of the additives in gasoline. Do the additives react with the gasoline and does the dilute mixture have a different chemistry either of less or greater propensity to decompose polymers?

4. As to how the additives in the proper mix quantity with gasoline work in a combustion chamber, well, you most certainly aren't going to duplicate that in your average kitchen.

Personally, I had some good results in my '97 Maxima SE in regards to Redline SL-1. This car has been very well maintained with gas purchases always done at high quality stations using premium. Still, when first used at 85k miles, the SL-1 seemed to provide a nice increase in smoothness at higher RPMs.

BTW, I bought a bunch of this SL-1 before hearing about Neutra (sp) on this site
pat.gif
. I personally think that its just possible the major gas companies in the interests of cost competitiveness might skip just a tad (maybe only a smiddgen) in regards to a full additive package and that the use of a quality additive just might be a good thing, especially on higher mileage vehicles.

[ November 16, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
 
ex_MGB,

The tests were done about 2 years ago. The car is an '89 Firebird Trans Am with 305 engine and TPI. I started out trying to find the cause of my injectors clogging, then, as long as I had all these products on hand, I thought I'd look for differences in how well they could dissolve tarry residues.

The nylon sock on the gas pick-up line was attacked by fuel system cleaners and injector cleaners I'd bought OTC. I do a lot of slow driving around town and was concerned about carbon build-up in the cylinders so I used these products regularly. The cleaners, not the gasohol, decomposed the nylon but the goo that formed stayed in the tank because it was not soluble in pure gasoline. As soon as I used the new gas containing alcohol (the only thing available in my area now), the alcohol dissolved the goo from the tank walls and circulated it throughout the fuel system. I saw the inside of the gas tank, the sock on the pick-up line, the inside of the fuel filter, and the gas lines at the engine and tank. The goo inside was easy to see.

My tests on nylon were done on a brand new sock bought at the dealer, the same type used on my car. I couldn't find out at the time what kind of nylon it was, but it was the proper type.

It's true, different materials may be in use today. You'd have to call your car's mfgr for a list of plastics, rubber, gasket materials, etc. used in your particular car. I asked GM about the plastics used in the fuel line and they gave me a good list. Except that they left out the nylon. It turned out that that was the weak spot in the system.

My experiments were meant to uncover, among other things, which cleaners on the market had the potential for causing nylon decomposition due to certain ingredients in the formulas. I'm sure you've heard about drugs being tested on animals at concentrations higher than what a person would be exposed to. It is common practice to test things at higher concentrations, higher temperatures, etc. than normally encountered in order to get results in a reasonable time period instead of the years it would otherwise take. For this reason each cleaner was tested at 100% concentration to speed up solvation, decomposition, or whatever was happening. It's true that if the products were diluted in the proper amount of gasoline, the effects would have been less pronounced, but nevertheless, there exists in some products certain ingredients with a deleterious effect on nylon. It just so happens that these ingredients are good at cleaning certain deposits.

Diluting the product in gasoline just slows the reaction, it does not stop it. I don't believe there is any reaction between the gasoline and the cleaners. I believe they act independently. The presence of gasoline also could have disguised the effects of the cleaners because gasoline itself is a solvent for tarry materials.

Even using properly diluted cleaners, it's possible that over an extended period of time there could be a slow buildup of decomposition products such as I found in my fuel system. It may be that any slow formation allows time for the stuff to be washed away. In my case however, it was released into the system all at once. This was a tremendous, expensive problem for me, new fuel injectors would clog up literally in a matter of minutes. I didn't want to see this happen to anyone else if they should make the same mistake I did - mistakenly assuming that "if a little is good, a lot must be better". Also, I only need to fill up once or twice a month, so any cleaner I added to the gas tank would sit in there for weeks with plenty of time to react. I no longer let any additives sit that long.

I'm well aware that the chemistry of the cleaners can be very different in a hot cylinder or injector tip compared to my kitchen. That was just one of the simplifying changes I had to make to be able to do the tests.

I'm not trying to get people to stop using any specific products. If they work for you, then that's great. I just wanted people to be aware of some of the differences between cleaners and what can happen if they are not used correctly.
 
The initial post about how great water is, is problematical.
MolaKule's small post is HUGE!!! Insane!!!!
Where was this gem hiding??
 
Well, when you search for terms, you are limited to the first 300 results. Therefore, many times, the earliest stuff doesn't show. I just went to page 170 and have been reading forward.
 
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