BG 109 vs 120, any techs experienced w/ both?

[dccode]

Hey, if you're a technician who works in a facility selling BG products I'd love to hear from you. I've contacted BG directly, who couldn't recommend any products & directed me to a local supplier, who looped me back to BG. I'd like to get some info from first-hand tech experiences rather than a salesman. The car in question is a: 2003 Ford 4.6L 2-Valve modular, 160k miles Pinging under heavy acceleration, and burning ~1 quart of oil / 1,000 miles Otherwise in good condition. I'd like to know more about: -what type of situation each is marketed for -which you'd recommend in this situation, (& if you'd recommend both, which one first) SDS: BG 109 - EPR Engine Performance Restoration SDS: BG 120 - Engine Purge If I'm understanding it right, 120 is mostly just naptha & kerosene (which can mean a lot of different chemicals), so I'm leaning towards 109. Misc info- I had the timing cover off to replace the guides & tensioner arms. The interior of the engine was clean, no sludge, typical varnish. I'm an adequate parts changer, but not a technician/diagnostician. The car is in generally good condition, I've cleaned the TB, MAF, PCV, & removed & cleaned injectors off car, replaced plugs, fuel & air filters. Typical tune up stuff. I'd like to do a before/after compression test for curiosity. Probably won't get around to it though. A dry before/after would be enough for some light anecdotal evidence yeah? These heads were supposed to be made post-stripped spark plug era, I've replaced the plugs once without incident. The oil pan is coming off within a few months to replace a leaking gasket, I'd like to inspect the pickup anyway (the plastic timing chain guides/arms were broken & heavily worn) I've run ~1 qt of water through a drip induction service already, it's helped tremendously w/ the pinging (used to ping at ~moderate throttle). I have plans for a simple sprayer & would like to run a couple gallons of H2O/H2O2/Meth through it on the road over the next few tanks of gas. I'm not too worried about O2's, they're on the long list for replacement anyway. I was considering a cylinder soak, but a) testing 109/120 seems like a fun experiment b) it's one more product to buy w/ questionable efficacy c) if 109/120 isn't enough, I can do it when changing the plugs a second time. I don't expect any miracles from an engine flush etc., but it's time for an oil change, and I'd like to roll the dice for $15-20. Some other information if it can help anyone in a similar situation: -Most manufacturers describe oil consumption as normal, I think Ford's threshold is ~1qt/800miles -There are many engine flush, intake/throttle body/valve/combustion chamber cleaners/decarbonizers marketed, the ones I found most evidence-based support for are: BG Products (typically BG 44K for consumers) Redline SL-1 Chrysler 4318001AD Combustion Chamber Cleaner Johnson Evinrude Engine Tuner Tune-Up Ford PM-3 Carburetor Tune-Up Cleaner ACDelco X66P Fuel Injector and Upper Engine Cleaner Products with PEA (polyether amine), which I believe is the (patented/owned) product in Techron ^ Techron Concentrate Plus (black bottle) Gumout Regane There are indeed a lot of testimonials for other products such as Auto RX, Marvel Mystery Oil, SeaFoam, Kreen/Kroil, Berryman's B12 Chemtool, LC20/FP60, Kerosene, Diesel, and many, many more. The information I've found has led me to spend my money on the others, and avoid these. Additionally, you can look for engine oils containing high detergents. Good luck finding accurate information. Typically recommended are: -HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oils, typically marketed as for diesel engines) -An oil containing high levels of calcium and magnesium -The list of oils marketed as having 'high detergents' is as long as the list of fuel/engine treatments. You can try looking at used oil analysis' to try and get an idea of actual contents. Some information on Top Tier Gas, which may surprise you. And a AAA study last month about gasoline, and more detailed info. http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers/ http://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/top-tier-gasoline/ https://s3.amazonaws.com/associationcommunicationfiles/PDF/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report-FINAL-1.pdf

 

[Revving2Redline]

Those timing chain guides could be a part of your issue. Moly is known to help with that but I dont know if its moly like Mos2 from Liquimoly or moly from say Lubegard. I lived in Wichita,KS so I have a soft spot for all things Wichita. I would double check pcv and vacuum hoses. Maybe rings are stuck but its hard to tell without a engine teardown. I would run IMHO some Gumout All in One or Redline SI 1 and the Liquimoly Mos2.Supposedly moly is supposed to help prevent carbon from sticking internally. I like the Gumout Multi tune as it has PEA and can be used the s'me way as Seafoam,but works better.Let us know what you find out. I think BG109 is MOA still and its gonna act like Lubegard Biotech of Liquimoly Motor Protect. Hope you find your gremlin hiding in your engine soon.

 

[dccode]

Thanks for the support, I'm up to my ears in products and am mostly interested in finding out how BG 109 & 120 differ hahahaha. I forgot to add that the PCV has been replaced with OEM, and I've run a bottle of Techron Concentrate Plus through the tank. The car is in otherwise good condition. BG 109/120 are basically "engine flush" type products to be used immediately prior to draining the oil, BG MOA is an MOA with extremely high Ca (~10,000+)- (VOA of BG MOA) , I'm considering that too. I'd like to start with 109/120/MOA, run a WMI for the next oil change to address the pinging, and reassess. Then I can try an induction cleaner etc. if I'm still experiencing issues. I figure the easiest and cheapest way of rolling the dice is a purge, a high detergent oil, and a water induction. Then move to chemicals if needed. Mostly I'm interested in hearing about how BG markets their 109 vs 120.

 

[KingCake]

You don't need snake oil. Run a high mileage oil and keep it topped off. 2V Modular motors start burning oil like that from valve seals/guides. Normal and they will keep running like that for a long long time.

 

[a1mfw]

Have you tried changing gas stations to help with the pinging?

 

[Olas]

I can see two possible ways to attack it.. If you can live with topping up the oil just use higher octane, and a colder plug and thermostat. If you want to fix it belt and braces, realise that oil in the combustion chamber reduces the the fuels KR. Look at your rings, guides, stem seals and PCV and youll kill two birds with one stone. Or if you're really lazy pull some timing out and put some snake oil in.

 

[sleddriver]

From my own experience, I've used BG109 twice in the sled motor. Sole purpose was a good internal oil passage/pan rinse after replacing the PVC system. Elevated front end, dumped can into hot motor, raised rpms to 2000 and left it there with hood open for about 15min., then shut off and dumped oil. Refilled with M1 syn + MOA and ran this for about 10,000mi with a filter change at 5000. May have been better off with a conventional oil/filter for a few hundred miles inbetween the flush & M1/MOA. In the tank, I use Redline Si-1, maybe once/yr. Gumout regane is also good as is BG-44K which is now quite expensive ~$25/can. Last Nov I tried CRC GDI Intake Cleaner. Strong smell of PEA. Haven't done it on the sled yet but you may also want to try an intake cleaner system whereby the fuel rail is disconnected, the cleaner is poured into a pressure tank and the car is run straight off of the cleaner for about 15 min or so. BG makes one, so does 3M as well as others.

 

[andyd]

Just wondering. What would happen if you filled a closed up engine to the top of the oil fill with diesel and let it sit overnight before draining it out and replacing the filter?

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: andyd

Just wondering. What would happen if you filled a closed up engine to the top of the oil fill with diesel and let it sit overnight before draining it out and replacing the filter?

The diesel that went in would come out as thick lumpy smelly obnoxious molasses. All that stuff you don't want in your motor gets dissolved (well the vast majority does) and comes out. Send a sample of the goop to Blackstone and see what they say

 

[UltrafanUK]

It might be cheaper to try using a higher octane fuel than a fuel additive to resolve the detonation issue, although I would make sure the timing is correct first. The oil consumption is a tad on the high side, so it might be worth moving up a grade to a thicker oil and adding a can of a major brand oil stop leak additive. If the problem is worn rings there is not much that can be done, but a good stop leak additive should help swell the valve guide oil seals. I don't understand why you are using a flush, do you have any real evidence the engine is sludged up ??

 

[Olas]

Do a leak down test to determine how oil is getting into the CC and fix accordingly. Or keep topping up with maxlife 10w40