quote:
Why is it my job to convince you?
Gee, I keep wondering about that myself. You're among those that keep chanting oil analysis oil analysis - not me. You're the one that's selling. If you're frustrated that I don't buy your anecdotal based reasoning, then may I suggest eitehr changing your tact or stop selling altogether? Repetition just isnt' going to do it.
but I suppose that's an option for you as well...
quote:
billions and billions of miles logged by millions and millions of motorists
While simplistically put, those are valid statistics. Do you have anything to contribute beyond another round of scare anecdotes about Joe Bloe down the street found a few dribbles of water?
---
quote:
We are merely defending the merits of oil analysis in this particular thread
Oh how quaint and patriotic that sounds
! To clarify, it is certainly implied and all but explicitly stated that dependence upon an odometer, manufacture recommendations or service lights or any other method that doesn't involve oil analysis lacks validity and merit and is essentially for "idiots" not welcome to or worthy of this board. That is not defending oil analysis, but rather follows the old 'best defense is a good offense' strategem. The whole oil analysis thing was needlessly interjected the whole while attacking (offense, not defense) algorithms, odometers and lights. Worse it was done w/o well reasoned logic or data and even the anecdotes were presumptive. It seeks to offend others chosen methods of reckoning changing oil as lacking merit. Ultimately it is done so in a matter more suitable for sales tactics that read like snake oil marketing literature than one based on objective facts, statistics and logical rationalizations in some (not all) cases. And it therefore completely ignores and thefore cannot stand up to even the most liberal cost benefit analysis.
BOBISTHEOILGUY:
I must say that is at last a well articulated post regarding oil analysis. Had you left out the anecdotes - it would have been as good as I could expect. It shows balance, objectivity and prudence in the application of oil analysis for the most part. It does state the merits of oil analysis without blanket attacks upon manufacturer approved methods, systems or interval reckoning.
quote:
I can assure you that I have seen more than my fair share of cars being towed, many of which had oil puddles on the ground
Unfortunately an otherwise well done post contains this anecdote. Do you have any kind of reasonable % or number of cars that suffer oil related catastrophic engine failures during say the warranty period? 10yr/100K mi? Seeing more than your fair share proves nothing unless I know what the 'fair share' is and what percent 'more' is. Are you saying if used regularly it is a virtual profilactic against impending oil related engine failure via early detection/correction?
In your followup post I can't speak to oil service lights but the old fashioned owners manual/odo method should list a severe duty oil change intervals that apply operating in long idle, dusty or hot environments.
Truth be known I do have some experience w/ oil analysis myself and have no doubt about it's validity as to the condition of oil or the ability to reasonably infer engine condition from oil contents. It does require some basic mechanical/analystical skills to do so of course and mistakes can occur (including a few of the anecdotes listed above). Yes, it is a superior form of reckoning and more safely allows pushing the envelope of intervals compared to a perfectly acceptable and valid manufacturer based interval recommendations (beit based on sensors, lights or the odometer).
I've used oil analysis in the past and may use it again on a rare occasion though my anal retentive motor oil days are long behind me. But I'll never cow-tow to idiotic so-called 'logic' that dictates other methods are invalid simply because they aren't as good as rigorous oil analysis combined with correct mechanical analysis.
Three points to consider rounding out your post with:
1 - Fleet managers can often arrange for facilitated oil analysis since they already have records managment, technicians employed to conduct rigorous maintenance schedules as well as bulk negotiation/buying power and other supporting infrastructure making oil analysis all the more viable in this scenario. Rigorous cost benefit analysis usually holds water here (no pun intended). But the same objectives, methods & financial dynamics don't necessarily apply to private motorists. This serves as a good discussion to oil analysis though some apples to oranges context should be noted.
2 - There is also the psychologically appeasing aspect of oil analysis for consumers that was underplayed in my opinion, in your post. Based on the lack of rationale attributable to many analysis zealots plainly evident in the preceding posts, this is a indeed a
VERY significant factor. Clearly an undeniable benefit.
3 - The anecdotes about A) cars that were saved due to oil analysis and B) cars that could have been saved had they used oil analysis are just that - anecdotes in the absense of viable statistics about engine related oil failures. Numbers are needed first in order to then apply cost benefit analysis. Drop this from your post or include some statistics and you're getting pretty much to an objective FAQ or article on the subject and away form the snake oil literature such anecdotes smack of.
Finally you're note about folks not making money is well taken. However consider the psychological aspects of people needing to rationalize their decisions by swaying others to be of a similar opinion or like mind is a strong incentive arguably outweighing any profit motive. This plays not only a big part seemingly in the pro analysis camp but also in any discussion involving 'brand' loyalty. Sophisticated marketing programs prey upon this 'free' marketing division with precision and the internet can be a deft tool to those ends.
Stirring things up am I? Call it what you must, but when I see irrational arguments for something to the point of nauseum echoing like a playground chant, I find it easy to ask simple incisive questions. Predictable though they may be, I have no control how others choose to react.
-T
