4-stroke MXer oil?

[Autodarken]

Reading my own post, I must clarify Amsoil does not carry the official JASO MA certification label cause its not certified. I didnt say it did was, but what I did say was misleading.

The oil meets the spec, which is why they print JASO MA on the bottle, but it is not certified to carry the official label.

Amsoil does this with a few other certifications too, they simply appear not willing to pay for the offical label. Ok by me, cause they stand by their product and its well proven.

 

[Jaybird]

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...All the engines I know of that are sponsored by Amsoil run Amsoil products...

...When a company does not list a JASO specification, it likely will not meet that spec. Not sure how it is hypocrital when just stating facts...

You shouldn't assume so much as it does nothing for your arguments but make you look misinformed and argumentative.

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I think you are doing the speculating and making assumptions.

And again, Amsoil products are NOT JASO certified products, I don't care what their sales staff swears to.
Using your logic, I think we can assume that Amsoil simply can't pass the JASO certifications, or eles they would do it, right?

But that still doesn't explain why they would try to fake the consuming public out with fake JASO labels and such...I mean, if they discount the JASO and API certifications, why even bother? (the answer to this is quite obvious...)

Autodarken,
you seem to be quick to spout of facts that are less than factual. (take for instance your not having one idea of how ANY pro sponsorship contract reads, yet you makes statements as if you did...)
Do try to keep up.

 

[wileyE]

Think amsoil has taken the steps to verify the frictional characteristic of their powersport oils, probably the most important part of the jaso cert. Think most the rest of the jaso testing could be passed by anything that resembles oil, so it's no biggie for that it's not officially certified. The rub, like jaybird mentions, is they market, label, and have their network salesmen as if it is. The company trys hard to market on facts figures stats and bar graphs, so to play fast and loose with something as simple as specification and certification may make one question the rest of the data as well.

 

[TimVipond]

Amsoil does test and publish their frictional tests showing they meet JASO specifications. Look at the 26 motorcycle oil comparison report they publish and the tech bulletin Pablo released. Any company or individual could prove that Amsoil does not meet JASO simply by performing standardized JASO tests. No one has ever shown the JASO specified.
products do not meet JASO specifications. It is standard industry practice to list oils that meet the specifications whether or not they are certified. Just check out several JASO oils.

SLM, you say "When the oil actuals matters in a race win, let us know. " You've got to be kidding, right? That has been proven ever since Amsoil sold the first API approved synthetic motor oil 35 years ago. You actually think a conventional petroleum oil can compete with a synthetic oil in racing? Where have you been for the past 35 years?

 

[TimVipond]

I'm not sure how people can think Amsoil "plays fast and loose with something as simple as specification and certification". I think they make it clear which specifications they meet and which products are certified using standard industry practices. The info can be found on 6500 pages of information on their website. The info can be found on their labeling. I don't know of any oil company that even comes close with information available on their products. All of Amsoil's recommended lubricants and filters meet OEM warranty requirements (the OEM's don't seem to have any problems with Amsoil specifications and certifications) even for extended oil change intervals, plus have a free parts and labor warranty should their products ever fail when the equipment runs out of warranty, plus have a stellar record with the BBB for 35 years. This seems to satisfy all but a few people, so I think they've done a great job with information.

 

[SLM]

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SLM, you say "When the oil actuals matters in a race win, let us know. " You've got to be kidding, right? That has been proven ever since Amsoil sold the first API approved synthetic motor oil 35 years ago. You actually think a conventional petroleum oil can compete with a synthetic oil in racing? Where have you been for the past 35 years?

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I'm sorry, but guys like Ricky Carmichael didn't win because they had a synthetic oil in their engine. They won for a variety of reasons that don't matter here. A DNF might make oil important depending on the failure, but nobody wins becuase they used a specific oil. I haven't been alive 35 years, but I'm smart enough to know that a guy like Carmichael would win with synthetic or conventional.

 

[TimVipond]

I don't think Ricky Carmichael could win using a cheap petroleum API SM non Jaso specified car oil. If they could, why don't any of the pros run this type of oil? Just think, they could knock the whole synthetic oil business out and recapture their lost market.

 

[wileyE]

The falacy of geometric reasoning.

A = b, b = c, thus a = c

a rabbit has four legs, a dog has four legs, thus a rabbit must be a dog? that's the falacy of geometric reasoning

honda races with amsoil, honda riders sometimes win, thus amsoil must be reponsible for the win. that's the falacy

This is tactic used on naive jurors by slick lawyers, present em with an A and a B and conclude with the "logical" C. Works sometimes but a good judge will recognize it and make it go away, or the other lawyer will tear it apart for what it is. It's common marketing practice and is used to defend position all the time, though its flawed.


We just have a difference of perspective. We have outsiders and insiders so the way we look at things is different. Obviously tim is pretty pumped by amsoils involvement with racing, I would be too as a dealer. But not being a dealer (an outsider looking in) it's harder for me to make the a=b=c connection, please excuse my skepticism. Guess I just don't have what it take to be a true believer.

 

[TimVipond]

I've never said Amsoil was responsible for the Honda Riders winning. I'm saying that with the same rider and motorcycle, a motorcycle specific JASO MA specified synthetic oil will make a pro racer MX bike run faster and longer than a non JASO specified API SM petroleum car oil. My perspective is from a college graduate with 30 years in in the oil industry and seeing first hand the testing that goes on in developing better performing oils. You wouldn't believe the time and money spent by Shell on the Shell sponsored Ferrari race team working on the oil constantly to make the cars go faster. I'm not a 20 something student shooting at the hip.

 

[wileyE]

Fair enough Tim and hope any of my posts weren't taken personal. I respect your years experience in the oil industry, I have about the same in racing and tuning. Even the best motor guys in the world aren't always in agreement about oil, so it's no wonder us forum talkers have differences too.

 

[Autodarken]

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Autodarken,
you seem to be quick to spout of facts that are less than factual. (take for instance your not having one idea of how ANY pro sponsorship contract reads, yet you makes statements as if you did...)
Do try to keep up.

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LOL...what???
If you have a problem with my comments, then lets hear what your issue is, and give YOUR OWN facts as you know them.

Dont just bash, call me a lier, and walk away.

You crack me up...

 

[SLM]

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I don't think Ricky Carmichael could win using a cheap petroleum API SM non Jaso specified car oil. If they could, why don't any of the pros run this type of oil? Just think, they could knock the whole synthetic oil business out and recapture their lost market

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Carmichael couldn't care less about the oil his bike runs. He'd probably have to look down at his suzuki shirt to relize that his bike probably has maxima in it. Maxima isn't his sponser, it a sponser of Team Suzuki. While there may be some quotes of his used in an ad, many would look at them and say those aren't his words. When he leaves Suzuki, someone else's name will be put under the same old quote. Botique oil guys such as yourself will always be willing to throw money at race teams (and free oil) for advertising. As long as thats happening why would any team run something they had to pay for? Wonder what the low budget shop teams and priviteers who have to pay for their oil run?

 

[Autodarken]

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Wonder what the low budget shop teams and priviteers who have to pay for their oil run?

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Why dont you just ask? Where's the nearest track? Stop in the pits and ask questions...

I was never a Pro anything in racing, it was a hobby. I ran with SCCA for many years and have ridden more sportbike track days than I can recall. The group I rode with (NESBA) had a number of semi-pro riders in the A group, who use the event as practice and set up time.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone running anything but top name synthetic oils at sais events.

Most at these events dont even get discounts, yet still run top shelf synthetic brands. They just wait for the sales & rebates like everyone else.

But if you think big name sponsers of big name teams which get free product, isnt using the free product... LOL, come on.

Stop in the pits guys, ask questions.

 

[Jaybird]

The point is the rediculous assertions made that pro riders, or any other riders for that matter, will see failures and slower times if they are using other than API SM JASO certified oils.
I guess that prior to 1999 that motocross and pro racing was nothing but a track full of engine failures. (pleeeease)

And I didn't call you a liar, autodarken, just called you on your assertions, of which you have nothing to back them up but your own logic and speculation.
You ask me to provide my own facts, yet what you provided is nothing but your personal opinion (yet stated as fact).

 

[TimVipond]

Prior to 1999, motorcycle engines produced less horsepower and torque, and motorcycle/car oils were very similar including API service categories. Not today. I'm not aware of any JASO MA oil with API SM.

 

[TimVipond]

Notice no API SM.

Motorcycle oils:
Repsol 4T motorcycle oil = Meets JASO MA API SJ requirements
Amsoil 10W40 motorcycle oil = Performance specifications include: API SG, SL/CF; JASO MA/MA-2; API GL-1
Mobil 1 4T motorcycle oil = exceeds the requirements of API Service Categories SH, SG/CF, CD, JASO MA
Motul 7100 motorcycle = Meets the following standards; API SL/SH/SG and JASO MA.
CASTROL ACT-EVO 4 STROKE motorcycle = Meets the following standards; API SL/SH/SG and JASO MA.

 

[SLM]

So all bike oils only meet SL at best, is this because SM is so bad? Or is that companies will spend the money for JASO and not the new SM? I really am curious. Personally I am running syn rotella and I'm sure its only SL, I guess it doesn't matter, but I am curious as to why the motorcycle makers would still be specing the old standard.

 

[TimVipond]

API SM is lower on zinc and other additives which are important for wear protection on parts such as cams and transmission gears. API SM formulations may have a lot more moly, and than can cause it to fail JASO MA, have less friction and cause clutch slippage.

The problem with running Rotella and other non motorcycle specific oils is what worked yesterday might not work today due to formulation changes unknown to anyone but the formulators. They do not test these new formulations on motorcycles since this is not the intended use.

Some Rotella is CJ-4, some is CI4+, some is SM, some are SL, some is high ash, some is low ash. They could be synthetic, synthetic blend, conventional. Many people when they say they run Rotella are unclear as to which oil they are running, or which API version. Again, these can change base oils and additive packages overnight, and hardly anyone will know.

 

[Steve S]

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there are a few on here already that shows what i have said.

your attitude is once again proof why i will never post uoa info again on here and wish i could have removed.
the constant negatives have never approached the positives.

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I appreciate your posts.

 

[Autodarken]

About teams using a sponsers product...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...;gonew=1#UNREAD