JHZR2
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0W-16 Strength & Durability
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Why don't you look at the VOA got TGMO 0w-16 that is on this forum?
Don't take this as me being "anti-thin oil" but I do have to ask....
They change the oil how often ? I'm guessing daily. How frequently do they tear down/re-build these engines ? Weekly ?
That said, obviously they want the absolute minimum amount of friction (presuming thinner oil means lower friction).
You have to remember these engines (Pro Stock Drag Racing), are only run for about 2 minutes total from start up, burnout, staging, and then a 6 second run under full power. They are immediately shut down after they cross the finish line.
Pro Stock racers typically chill their engines to 60 degrees before every run, and they have plenty of time between rounds to cool them. And they hold extra capacity amounts of oil compared to a street car. So the oil temperature never gets that high.
"Remember that Pro Stock racers typically chill their engines to 60 degrees before every run, and they have plenty of time between rounds to cool them. If you are a sportsman racer making hot laps between the finish line and the staging lanes in the late rounds of an eliminator, you need oil with higher viscosity and more film strength. A wet-sump system provides very little oil cooling – the heat just builds and builds, round after round.
Racing in the cool months, 10W-30 oil is a good choice for most sportsman engines. However, in summer when the weather is broiling in most parts of the country, I recommend 20W-40 or 20W-50 viscosity. You might give up a little power compared to a super-thin oil, but engine durability will be much better. When we switched to high-viscosity oil in our Pro Mod engines, the reduction in wear in highly stressed components such as wrist pins and pushrod seats was dramatic".
Tech Talk #98 – Oil Is Everything
By David Reher, Reher-Morrison Racing Engines “It’s better to allow a little trash to circulate inside the engine than to risk a catastrophic failure due to insufficient oil flow.”…
rehermorrison.com
wemay
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Development of Low Viscosity API SN 0W-16 Fuel-Saving Engine Oil Considering Chain Wear Performance
A low viscosity API SN 0W-16 engine oil was developed to achieve a 0.5% improvement in fuel efficiency over the current GF-5/API SN 0W-20 oil. Oil consumption and engine wear are the main roadblocks to the development of low viscosity engine oils. However, optimization of the base oil and additives
SAE Papers:
0W-16 Fuel Economy Gasoline Engine Oil Compatible with Low Speed Pre-Ignition Performance
It has been long established fact that fuel economy is a key driving force of low viscosity gasoline engine oil research and development considered by the original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) and lubricant companies. The development of low viscosity gasoline engine oils should not only focus on f
Development of Low Viscosity 0W-16 Fuel-Saving Engine Oil using a Synergistic Optimization of an Innovative Base Oil and Performant Additives while Maintaining Engine Durability in a ILSAC GF6-B Environment
Lowering fuel consumption whilst maintaining engine life continues to be a challenge for the lubricant industry. Forthcoming ILSAC GF-6 specification and new emission regulations make this challenge even harder to overcome. Knowledge concerning innovative polyalkylene glycol (PAG) chemistry combined
This. 
Many 0W-16 and 0W-20 come with elevated content of MoDTC, boron or even tungsten
compared to most 5W-30 oils. Not as a general rule, but still there's a tendency and of
course it highly depends on spec and approvals. The 'thins' in some cases also use particular
high quality base oils to limit Noack losses.
.
Many 0W-16 and 0W-20 come with elevated content of MoDTC, boron or even tungsten
compared to most 5W-30 oils. Not as a general rule, but still there's a tendency and of
course it highly depends on spec and approvals. The 'thins' in some cases also use particular
high quality base oils to limit Noack losses.
.
Tech Talk #98 – Oil Is Everything
By David Reher, Reher-Morrison Racing Engines “It’s better to allow a little trash to circulate inside the engine than to risk a catastrophic failure due to insufficient oil flow.”…
rehermorrison.com
David Reher is a very smart engine builder. We are very proud to be the only oil David recommends on his site based on his experience with our oil.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
I'm certain of it..Tech Talk #98 – Oil Is Everything
By David Reher, Reher-Morrison Racing Engines “It’s better to allow a little trash to circulate inside the engine than to risk a catastrophic failure due to insufficient oil flow.”…rehermorrison.com
David Reher is a very smart engine builder. We are very proud to be the only oil David recommends on his site based on his experience with our oil.
In regard to all of these arguments concerning 0W-16 oils. Most all of them seem to travel down the same road of, "Are they safe to use"?.... Or, "Will my engine last as long"?.... Or, "Are they OK to use in hot weather"? Or, "Is their film strength and shear as good as higher viscosity oils"?
I'm not hearing anyone claim it protects your engine better. Not even the manufacturers who "recommend" it. It seems they always leave an out for themselves, much like Toyota does in their owners manual, for their 2.5, 4-cylinder claiming that, "In severe conditions a higher viscosity oil, (one with a higher number), may be better suited"....... Meaning, Thicker Is Better under many, or even most demanding operating conditions.
All of the talk around 0W-16 seems to be focused on, "easier cold weather starting", along with, "better fuel economy". Nowhere have I heard it claimed or stated that it will protect your engine better than higher viscosity oils will.
And then there is the valid argument that cars shipped to other countries who are not influenced by CAFE, all have higher viscosity oils recommended. For example, Toyota's owners manual for the Australian Camry with the same identical AKS 2.5L 4-cylinder engine recommends motor oils up to and including 15W-40.
So..... Based on that, if you live in a hot, or even a mild climate where cold weather starting is of zero concern, and you don't give a dam about CAFE, and don't care about achieving an extra .0003% better fuel mileage, why would you even bother with this crap? Simply put, it's of absolutely no use to you.
Which brings us right back to the almost certain fact, that if CAFE didn't exist in this country, neither would 0W-16, because there is no good use for it...... Unless you make short trips, and live in Fairbanks in January. Or you have sponsors with deep pockets, and you want an extra 8 H.P. out of your $150K Pro Stock engine, that's only designed to last 7 to 10 runs anyway.
I'm not hearing anyone claim it protects your engine better. Not even the manufacturers who "recommend" it. It seems they always leave an out for themselves, much like Toyota does in their owners manual, for their 2.5, 4-cylinder claiming that, "In severe conditions a higher viscosity oil, (one with a higher number), may be better suited"....... Meaning, Thicker Is Better under many, or even most demanding operating conditions.
All of the talk around 0W-16 seems to be focused on, "easier cold weather starting", along with, "better fuel economy". Nowhere have I heard it claimed or stated that it will protect your engine better than higher viscosity oils will.
And then there is the valid argument that cars shipped to other countries who are not influenced by CAFE, all have higher viscosity oils recommended. For example, Toyota's owners manual for the Australian Camry with the same identical AKS 2.5L 4-cylinder engine recommends motor oils up to and including 15W-40.
So..... Based on that, if you live in a hot, or even a mild climate where cold weather starting is of zero concern, and you don't give a dam about CAFE, and don't care about achieving an extra .0003% better fuel mileage, why would you even bother with this crap? Simply put, it's of absolutely no use to you.
Which brings us right back to the almost certain fact, that if CAFE didn't exist in this country, neither would 0W-16, because there is no good use for it...... Unless you make short trips, and live in Fairbanks in January. Or you have sponsors with deep pockets, and you want an extra 8 H.P. out of your $150K Pro Stock engine, that's only designed to last 7 to 10 runs anyway.
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How inefficient! Flow should be up for them by going to 0W-2
https://www.amazon.com › LAT-20...
LAT 20478-5 (SAE 0W-2) Ultra-Light Synthetic Racing Oil
Toyota did design a variable-output oil pump, controlled by the PCM. However, it’s more of an efficiency thing.
I agree with @Astro14 here - it’s driving conditions that dictate how well an oil can protect and how the intended use cycle dictates OEM specs. A Camry is a point A-B appliance. US commutes and car usage is similar but not a dead-on match for Japanese driving cycles but ILSAC is a consortium between the US/Japanese/Korean OEMs. The Japanese were the first to jump on the “thin” oil bandwagon - Toyota started using 5W-30 in the 1990s, Honda started using 0W-20 from the factory as early as 1999.
SammyChevelleTypeS3
$50 site donor 2023
The Prius is a known oil burner due to that fact - but I think it’s a mix of low-tension rings for less pumping loss combined with start-stop that’s causing the rings to come up. And it’s intentionally undersized to move something that’s about the same weight as a Corolla around. I’m running a stout 5W-30 in a gen 2, but M1 0W-20 ESP(or similar ACEA Cx or MB 229.7/BMW LL-17FE/VW 508.00 approved oil) would be my pick in a newer one if it wasn’t as expensive as it is.
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I may come back to buy some more of your oil, my engine is really smoothing out and I will do my best to get some filters to a forum member that cuts them open. I documented a timeline of your EC product to the white filter I put on a few days later in the thread.Tech Talk #98 – Oil Is Everything
By David Reher, Reher-Morrison Racing Engines “It’s better to allow a little trash to circulate inside the engine than to risk a catastrophic failure due to insufficient oil flow.”…rehermorrison.com
David Reher is a very smart engine builder. We are very proud to be the only oil David recommends on his site based on his experience with our oil.
You have a top-rate company and business, for those reading this thread that dont know: I recently visited the production facility for HPL in Illinois where they make it, they supply US Customs and Border Patrol and they are not some fly-by-night company, every single person there was outstanding and we all speak highly of Wayne (site owner,) OVERKILL, etc.
Good people, good times, great oil.
I now defer to this thread, where I personally would not run a 0W-16 whereas I'd consider a 0W-20 if it provided adequate minimum protection to my engine. It seems to want to have a 0W or 5W-30 in it, ..... if this is boxer-engine specific or not I don't know, thick vs thin again, To be fair, my engine was never specified for a 20, as far as I know, much less a 16.
As stated earlier, if your engine states it can use or TO use a 0W-16 as there is no 5W-16 as far as I know... you will be fine.
There is a 10W-20 grade, this another thing I learned from HPL.
This brings up yet another good point about questioning engine longevity with this stuff. Simply put, the Japanese don't care about long engine life. Because their government has mandated very strict legislation, that makes it all but cost prohibitive to license older vehicles on their roads. It's quite literally cheaper to get a new car. Putting a car on the road there is horribly expensive compared to here.... Especially older one's.
Try to find a licensed vehicle in Japan with 200,000 miles on it, like you see here quite commonly. It will be easier to find the Hope Diamond in a dumpster. So to put it in a nutshell, Japan doesn't care about long engine life.
So much so they have established a market for their 3, 4, and 5 year old low mileage engines here. Where even with our emission testing standards, these used engines will pass easily. And are a cheaper alternative to a factory replacement engine for many people.
So for Japan, water thin oil it is, across the board. Because in the grand scheme of things, it simply doesn't matter.
Remember why the HTHS viscosity parameter was invented. It's because the oil can run at near 150C in the journal bearings while it's shearing at a high rate, even though the oil in the sump is at 100-120C. So you don't have to be screaming down the Autobahn or on a track to get the oil at 150C in the bearings. In those cases, you better have way more HTHS viscosity than 2.6 cP.
As has been discussed many times in these kinds of threads, when film thickness between moving parts due to viscosity (the MOFT) can't cut it (ie, when metal-to-metal contact happens due to zero film thickness), then the film strength (from the AF/AW additives) of the oil has to kick in to help reduce wear.
The first line of wear protection is from the viscosity, and the second line of protection is from the film strenght. Going as low as possible on HTHS viscosity essentially gives less headroom protection in the film thickness, and more reliance on the oil film strength.
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Your posts, as well as many others in this thread, are scientific, factual, and well reasoned and expressed.
I'm not sure the same can be said for some, especially the th.. but that's as far as I'll comment on that.
The question asked was answered at Post #6 and again at Post #13.
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