LOL And it will be the same old story, in a new format.
0W-16 Strength & Durability
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It's amazing how often this is overlooked, and even argued against. Under high heat and high speed conditions, 0W-16 is not going to cause your engine to "blow up". But the fact is there are better, and God forbid I say the word thicker oils that will do a better job, and give better protection under those conditions...... Even the manual says it.
It's already out. Pro Stock drag racers have been using it for some time now.
XPR 0W-8 Extreme Performance Racing
Royal Purple XPR 0W-8 motor oil is specifically formulated to maximize performance and meet the demands of high performance engines. Best Oil. Best Prices.
royalpurpledirect.com
As soon as it starts to become popular and the mfgs. call for it in daily drivers it will be debated, kicked around, and become a contender in the thick vs thin wars.It's already out. Pro Stock drag racers have been using it for some time now.
XPR 0W-8 Extreme Performance Racing
Royal Purple XPR 0W-8 motor oil is specifically formulated to maximize performance and meet the demands of high performance engines. Best Oil. Best Prices.
We have had five cars/suv that ran 0W20 in the past decade and a half and only one engine lasted over 60K miles without major oil consumption or engine rapping - so I am not putting any faith in a 0W16.
And If you just increase system pressure and bearing area you are back to the windage and pumping losses you had with a higher KV and HTHS.
That my sample size. What is yours?
And If you just increase system pressure and bearing area you are back to the windage and pumping losses you had with a higher KV and HTHS.
That my sample size. What is yours?
and which engines exactly? you can't overcome bad engine design with an engine oil
my 2GR-FEs spec'd for 0w20 haven't failed and I know some with 400k+ on 0w20...
0W-30 in the crankcase of my "0W-16 Toyota" as we speak. At operating temperature at idle, it's amazing how much quieter the engine sounds.
@Astro14 is correct in his explanation.
If you pull the scientific/engineering articles from the SAE Journal on the development of 0W-16 and 0W-20, the tests they conducted include wear analysis.
The manufacturer's test and determine whether or not the wear on the engine - rings, main bearings, piston skirts, valve seats and guides, etc. is within an acceptable specified limit and then it's deemed good enough and they specify it in the manual.
If you pull the scientific/engineering articles from the SAE Journal on the development of 0W-16 and 0W-20, the tests they conducted include wear analysis.
The manufacturer's test and determine whether or not the wear on the engine - rings, main bearings, piston skirts, valve seats and guides, etc. is within an acceptable specified limit and then it's deemed good enough and they specify it in the manual.
All this discussion and no one is talking about what a used oil analysis shows. If 0w-16 is destroying engines, won't the metals in a UOA show it?
I wouldn't be against running an sae 16 but 0w-16 scrapes limits. Higher noack, more shear, and lower hths than 0w-20 without showing any worthwhile efficiency improvements. Besides 0w-20 is thin enough to not merit spending a lot more on 0w-16 compared to readily available 0w-20 that gives virtually the same mpg.
Going below 2.6 hths has shown to begin to increase wear notably as well in more aggressive daily use except in hybrids since they don't typically get used hard.
Having an hths figure is one thing but some base stocks appear to be more fragile and shear under load easier than a thinner yet tightly nit molecule chain on a better 20 grade. I'd have more faith in a primarily group 4 utilizing stout 20 grade film protecting more than a group 1 based 40 grade with a fragile hydrocarbon chain even if the additive pack was the same.
Another thing to consider is that most people are gonna get a cheap conventional 5w-20 change at a quick lube and have fun with their car when the base stock isn't good and will breach moft a lot easier than a higher quality 20 grade. So it'd be best to bump up a grade in that case but that doesn't happen. When the base stock and general formulation is really good a thin oil is just fine but not everyone's a diy'er whos gonna spend less, research base stocks, additives, certifications, ect... to get a really good 0w-20 like a lot of people on here do and oil filters also play a big role in wear fers which no one brings up.
Cars and trucks like toyota's spec'd for 0w-16 and 0w-20 usually say to bump up a grade in "severe" usage like high speed driving like a highway which basically everyone does. So you'll fall into the severe category and should bump up a grade. The engineers say to use a thin oil but also imply to use a thicker one as well. But engines spec'd for 5w-30 usually don't include that since there's enough hths in a 5w-30 in harder use to where 0w-20 is a bit low and could go below moft but its still a resource conserving grade and additives like boron are supposed to give better mpg in thicker oils.
These thinner oils are reserved for more daily driven vehicles and in the case of the euro grade 20's they can be stout compared to your API only rated budget syn. So i wouldn't be afraid to run a stout off the shelf 20 grade in an engine as long as it doesnt burn oil and doesn't do hard work and i'd still expect it to last 300k if it didn't have inherent engineering and production issues. I.E. my escalade lol.
I don't expect my 6.2 to last over 300k without needing to be torn down no matter what oil i use but it's not a daily so that's not a longevity concern. So i may just use a 0w-20 since it won't matter in such a low quality modern gm engine but i may bump up to a 5w-30 anyway since it costs the same and also gives pretty much the exact same mpg anyway. So i'm on the fringe.
But id rather run an sae 20 or 10w-20 since the hths is higher like 2.8+ while still being thin enough when hot to give great efficiency and but give good protection yet still flow just fine for like 90% of us year round. So i'd have zero wear fears over it and it'd be cheaper to produce too.
20 grade oils have gotten much much better recently. In the late 90's a consumer 20 grade sucked and didn't provide adequate protection since base stocks weren't good. Now they've gotten better to where it isn't a concern in a normally driven vehicle that isn't expected to last over 200k
0w-8 and even 0w-12 although the rarest is a mess with high volatility and need for illogically expensive base stocks to achieve decent performance characteristics. We're gonna have to go back to straight grades like sae 8 and and explore 5w-16 more to have more easily attainable low viscosity oils with more hths and lower volatility that have good general performance without needing more expensive bases.
Going below 2.6 hths has shown to begin to increase wear notably as well in more aggressive daily use except in hybrids since they don't typically get used hard.
Having an hths figure is one thing but some base stocks appear to be more fragile and shear under load easier than a thinner yet tightly nit molecule chain on a better 20 grade. I'd have more faith in a primarily group 4 utilizing stout 20 grade film protecting more than a group 1 based 40 grade with a fragile hydrocarbon chain even if the additive pack was the same.
Another thing to consider is that most people are gonna get a cheap conventional 5w-20 change at a quick lube and have fun with their car when the base stock isn't good and will breach moft a lot easier than a higher quality 20 grade. So it'd be best to bump up a grade in that case but that doesn't happen. When the base stock and general formulation is really good a thin oil is just fine but not everyone's a diy'er whos gonna spend less, research base stocks, additives, certifications, ect... to get a really good 0w-20 like a lot of people on here do and oil filters also play a big role in wear fers which no one brings up.
Cars and trucks like toyota's spec'd for 0w-16 and 0w-20 usually say to bump up a grade in "severe" usage like high speed driving like a highway which basically everyone does. So you'll fall into the severe category and should bump up a grade. The engineers say to use a thin oil but also imply to use a thicker one as well. But engines spec'd for 5w-30 usually don't include that since there's enough hths in a 5w-30 in harder use to where 0w-20 is a bit low and could go below moft but its still a resource conserving grade and additives like boron are supposed to give better mpg in thicker oils.
These thinner oils are reserved for more daily driven vehicles and in the case of the euro grade 20's they can be stout compared to your API only rated budget syn. So i wouldn't be afraid to run a stout off the shelf 20 grade in an engine as long as it doesnt burn oil and doesn't do hard work and i'd still expect it to last 300k if it didn't have inherent engineering and production issues. I.E. my escalade lol.
I don't expect my 6.2 to last over 300k without needing to be torn down no matter what oil i use but it's not a daily so that's not a longevity concern. So i may just use a 0w-20 since it won't matter in such a low quality modern gm engine but i may bump up to a 5w-30 anyway since it costs the same and also gives pretty much the exact same mpg anyway. So i'm on the fringe.
But id rather run an sae 20 or 10w-20 since the hths is higher like 2.8+ while still being thin enough when hot to give great efficiency and but give good protection yet still flow just fine for like 90% of us year round. So i'd have zero wear fears over it and it'd be cheaper to produce too.
20 grade oils have gotten much much better recently. In the late 90's a consumer 20 grade sucked and didn't provide adequate protection since base stocks weren't good. Now they've gotten better to where it isn't a concern in a normally driven vehicle that isn't expected to last over 200k
0w-8 and even 0w-12 although the rarest is a mess with high volatility and need for illogically expensive base stocks to achieve decent performance characteristics. We're gonna have to go back to straight grades like sae 8 and and explore 5w-16 more to have more easily attainable low viscosity oils with more hths and lower volatility that have good general performance without needing more expensive bases.
Some are using an even better oil - 0W3It's already out. Pro Stock drag racers have been using it for some time now.
XPR 0W-8 Extreme Performance Racing
Royal Purple XPR 0W-8 motor oil is specifically formulated to maximize performance and meet the demands of high performance engines. Best Oil. Best Prices.
Yep, you read that right, 0W3.
THREE.
And their engines don't blow up from oil failure.
It's about what works in that engine, with those operating conditions, not about oil X is better than oil Y based on one number viewed in isolation.
We already have several analysis reports posted here already and they look stellar.
JHZR2
Staff member
I think that some intended applications of 0w-16 are suspect.
The regular ICE Camry that just idles its way to the grocery store... ok.
The hybrids that will turn off their engines after long climbs and accelerations? I can see the potential for heat soak in the bearings, and all of a sudden you do have lots of start-stop scenarios at HTHS type temperatures in the bearings for a short period, but potentially the worst case period, no flow, low RPM, very hot, collapsed hydrodynamics, etc...
Ive been tempted to try 0w-16 in my hybrid, but have not because it is a far different start stop scenario than a regular ICE....
Anything that starts with "I heard...." gets ignored by me. That just means someone else (who likely has no expertise on the topic) made a comment based on their opinion, then others repeat it. If the person read it in a scientific / engineering / medical / etc journal or publication, they shouldn't start with "I heard..." either.
JHZR2
Staff member
Bearing coatings are being used to increase durability in hybrid/start stop equipped vehicles as well as allowing the use of lower viscosity oils.
Oil_Udder mentioned the need to use IROX coated bearings in the start/stop Pentastar to get it to pass testing.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/626-000-mile-pentastar-teardown.329423/#post-5474475
wemay
Site Donor 2023
And CR once printed a list of the vehicles which consumed the most oil. None of which used 0W-20. This is just to address your argument, not to say thin oil is better than thick and vice versa. Consumption has many causes.
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4WD
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We just finished 157k on a Fusion hybrid … trouble free vehicle/engine on M1 0W20 (zero top ups in 10k OCI)
Original brakes …
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