oil for Tundra dual Turbo V6

[btanchors]

Hello everyone. I have some questions about using a different viscosity of oil than specified by the manufacturer. I know the prevailing wisdom is to avoid doing this – the engineers know more than I do, etc. But I think I have found a scenario where it is warranted. After thinking about this carefully, the decision is much more complex than I envisioned. I need to hear the prevailing wisdom of this group.

My family has owned 4 Toyota Tundras over the years, and I am now contemplating buying my fifth. I am well aware of the failing main bearing issues with the new turbocharged V6, but we are sticking with this choice. It is this problem, plus my operating conditions that are causing me to re-consider what oil to use. Here is the scenario.

• I live in Phoenix, AZ, where high temperatures during the summer hit 115, sometimes frequently and for a month or two at a time. Winter temps seldom go below 30.
• The Tundra engine has dual turbochargers, direct injection, variable valve timing, and (I think) a variable oil pump.
• The 2022 – current turbo V6 engine is well known for having excessive wear of its main bearings, sometimes leading to seizing of the engine. These engines are getting replaced by the manufacturer for the most part, but naturally I would like to avoid this situation. I suspect using an oil with a higher High-Temperature High Shear (HTHS) would help. I don’t think use of 0W-20 is the primary cause of these bearing issues, and an oil with higher HTHS won’t guarantee this problem doesn’t happen, but I believe it would help, especially in my high-heat operating conditions.
• The owner’s manuals for these engines spec a 0W-20 (which I have been using for years in my other vehicles)

What I am considering: I am considering using an oil that meets the Dexos R specification. So far, the lowest viscosity oil I have found that meets Dexos-R is 0W-40. Naturally, the 40 weight is significantly thicker at operating temps than 20 weight. But the Dexos-R is far more stringent than Dexos 1 Gen 3. The advantages I see of using an oil meeting this specs:

• Higher HTHS – which would help with bearing wear.
• The Dexos-R spec has much more stringent Low-speed pre-ignition requirements than Dexos-1 Gen 3.
• The Dexos-R spec has extremely stringent requirements for deposits in turbochargers in high-heat conditions – and this engine has two turbochargers.

Here are the concerns about using an oil like this:

• I think variable-speed oil pumps are calibrated according to the viscosity of oil that is recommended – can anyone confirm this? If that’s correct, using a 40-weight instead of a 20 weight could cause the oil flow to be significantly reduced – since at a given pressure, a higher-viscosity would flow less at a given pressure than a lower-viscosity.
• I have heard variable-valve timing engines (like this one) use oil pressure to control valve timing. A 0W-40 might cause valve timing to be altered from using a 0W-20 weight. Comments?
• Naturally, there could be warranty concerns.

Anyone out there have comments on this? Should I consider a higher-viscosity oil, or am I nuts? Perhaps I am over thinking this, but then again, this is BITOG... If not a Dexos-R oil, what should I consider for my conditions? I’d like to settle on a plan before I purchase this vehicle.

 

[Rand]

I'd avoid that engine.. it has problems no oil is going to fix.

 

[kschachn]

For the 878th time-

Variable oil pumps have nothing, nothing and nothing to do with requiring a low-viscosity oil. Zip, zero, nada. It is entirely and completely an Internet myth (which seems to live here for the most part). The pump is designed to reduce horsepower requirements and save fuel. It may help to accommodate thinner oils by increasing the pressure but it does not, no does not, require it in any way. Valve timing is not altered. If any of this were actually true then thousands - no millions of vehicles would be dead on the road here in the upper Midwest (and really anywhere else for that matter) when the engine is operating at a temperature less than normal operation, when oil viscosities are massively thicker than hot.

Wear is directly related to HT/HS. If you want to reduce wear then increase the grade. It’s as simple as that. There is no tangible downside except a small increase in fuel consumption, about 1-2% per grade.

And warranty consent would be up to you. No owner’s manual I’ve ever seen nor ever posted here to Bitog states that warranty is tied to grade. It’s tied to damage, and no oil of a somewhat higher HT/HS is going to the the cause of damage.

 

[CleanSump]

Before I'd buy a vehicle that required I divinate a mitigation plan, I'd choose a vehicle that doesn't require a mitigation plan. It's called Risk Management. If you perceive that one proposal has inherent risk, seek one that does not.

 

[GW.]

Can you safely increase grade?=yes

Will it fix the problem?=no

Should you buy a vehicle with current catastrophic engine failures?=no

 

[dnewton3]

I'll recommend considering the most expensive boutique oil you can possibly find.
Not that it's going to help or hinder the engine whatsoever, but I suspect you'll sleep better at night, because of the placebo effect.

Seriously, the issues with that engine application (internal damage to the mains from issues which I believe are still not 100% resolved) are FAR, FAR, FAR more concerning than worrying about what lube to use.

 

[edyvw]

Hello everyone. I have some questions about using a different viscosity of oil than specified by the manufacturer. I know the prevailing wisdom is to avoid doing this – the engineers know more than I do, etc. But I think I have found a scenario where it is warranted. After thinking about this carefully, the decision is much more complex than I envisioned. I need to hear the prevailing wisdom of this group.

My family has owned 4 Toyota Tundras over the years, and I am now contemplating buying my fifth. I am well aware of the failing main bearing issues with the new turbocharged V6, but we are sticking with this choice. It is this problem, plus my operating conditions that are causing me to re-consider what oil to use. Here is the scenario.

• I live in Phoenix, AZ, where high temperatures during the summer hit 115, sometimes frequently and for a month or two at a time. Winter temps seldom go below 30.
• The Tundra engine has dual turbochargers, direct injection, variable valve timing, and (I think) a variable oil pump.
• The 2022 – current turbo V6 engine is well known for having excessive wear of its main bearings, sometimes leading to seizing of the engine. These engines are getting replaced by the manufacturer for the most part, but naturally I would like to avoid this situation. I suspect using an oil with a higher High-Temperature High Shear (HTHS) would help. I don’t think use of 0W-20 is the primary cause of these bearing issues, and an oil with higher HTHS won’t guarantee this problem doesn’t happen, but I believe it would help, especially in my high-heat operating conditions.
• The owner’s manuals for these engines spec a 0W-20 (which I have been using for years in my other vehicles)

What I am considering: I am considering using an oil that meets the Dexos R specification. So far, the lowest viscosity oil I have found that meets Dexos-R is 0W-40. Naturally, the 40 weight is significantly thicker at operating temps than 20 weight. But the Dexos-R is far more stringent than Dexos 1 Gen 3. The advantages I see of using an oil meeting this specs:

• Higher HTHS – which would help with bearing wear.
• The Dexos-R spec has much more stringent Low-speed pre-ignition requirements than Dexos-1 Gen 3.
• The Dexos-R spec has extremely stringent requirements for deposits in turbochargers in high-heat conditions – and this engine has two turbochargers.

Here are the concerns about using an oil like this:

• I think variable-speed oil pumps are calibrated according to the viscosity of oil that is recommended – can anyone confirm this? If that’s correct, using a 40-weight instead of a 20 weight could cause the oil flow to be significantly reduced – since at a given pressure, a higher-viscosity would flow less at a given pressure than a lower-viscosity.
• I have heard variable-valve timing engines (like this one) use oil pressure to control valve timing. A 0W-40 might cause valve timing to be altered from using a 0W-20 weight. Comments?
• Naturally, there could be warranty concerns.

Anyone out there have comments on this? Should I consider a higher-viscosity oil, or am I nuts? Perhaps I am over thinking this, but then again, this is BITOG... If not a Dexos-R oil, what should I consider for my conditions? I’d like to settle on a plan before I purchase this vehicle.

Well, first of all, no oil is going to fix that problem. But, it might delay issues.
If you are stuck to get it, get something that has MB229.5 or MB229.51/52 (lower SAPS). MB approvals are far more stringent than Dexos R.
My choice would be Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 available in Wal Mart.
You can go to boutique oils, like HPL, AMsoil. Amsoil has AEL 5W30 Euro. Low Noack, high HTHS for 30 grade (3.6cP). HPL has Euro 5W30 with almost 3.6cP HTHS. Redline 5W30 has HTHS at 3.7cP.

 

[drtyler]

Oil choice won’t help the design/manufacturing issue.

There are some high mileage examples using 0w-20.

The Mobil 1 ESP oils are a good choice.

I would only buy a new Tundra with the idea that it would be sold or traded when the powertrain warranty is done. With that, I would be open to the GM and Ford options, or buying a nice 2nd gen Tundra with 5.7.

 

[panthermike]

Agreed with the sentiment above. I bought a '24 thinking/believing they had them ironed out, which doesn't appear that way, now that they've recalled many more. Wish I had researched more deeply before buying, didn't realize they've been in vehicles since '17/18 and still having issues.

If you're dead set on one, I would run a 0w30/40 and have a good warranty on it.

 

[AZjeff]

There was just a YouTube video with the title "Toyota admits cause of Tundra engine failures " or something similar (don't care so didn't watch). Might want to find that before worrying about oil and before you buy one.

You've gotta ask yourself "Am I feeling lucky?"

 

[kschachn]

Well, first of all, no oil is going to fix that problem. But, it might delay issues.
If you are stuck to get it, get something that has MB229.5 or MB229.51/52 (lower SAPS). MB approvals are far more stringent than Dexos R.
My choice would be Mobil 1 ESP 0W30 available in Wal Mart.
You can go to boutique oils, like HPL, AMsoil. Amsoil has AEL 5W30 Euro. Low Noack, high HTHS for 30 grade (3.6cP). HPL has Euro 5W30 with almost 3.6cP HTHS. Redline 5W30 has HTHS at 3.7cP.

HT/HS will be you’re friend, if you have one at all.

 

[Cujet]

Those that claim higher viscosity won't fix the issue may be (technically) incorrect, to a point. The lack of pressure to the #1 bearing seems to be a key issue. Higher viscosity will reduce the oil escapes elsewhere and is much more likely to feed the #1 bearing correctly. Even with the pump operating in low pressure mode.

5W-30 is a first step.

The statement above about HTHS being important for wear is very accurate. Higher, up to about 4.0 or so, significantly reduces rates of wear!! Period end of story.

However, if we compare a 5W-30 with an HTHS of 3.8 and a straight 40 with an HTHS of 3.8, the more viscous oil will provide more protection and lower wear rates. In other words, the actual viscosity at operating temperature under low shear is what provides the minimum film thickness and in my example the straight 40 will provide far more film thickness in normal conditions (such as this #1 bearing issue). Reducing wear.

Put another way, the absolute film thickness before shear matters.

 

[tcp71]

I've been running Castrol EDGE 0w40 in my F150 eco since new. I ran Castrol EDGE 0w40 in my previous 2009 F150 5.4 3V. Both towed 7500lbs through the Rockies. See the trend.

 

[thastinger]

Hello everyone. I have some questions about using a different viscosity of oil than specified by the manufacturer. I know the prevailing wisdom is to avoid doing this – the engineers know more than I do, etc. But I think I have found a scenario where it is warranted. After thinking about this carefully, the decision is much more complex than I envisioned. I need to hear the prevailing wisdom of this group.

My family has owned 4 Toyota Tundras over the years, and I am now contemplating buying my fifth. I am well aware of the failing main bearing issues with the new turbocharged V6, but we are sticking with this choice. It is this problem, plus my operating conditions that are causing me to re-consider what oil to use. Here is the scenario.

• I live in Phoenix, AZ, where high temperatures during the summer hit 115, sometimes frequently and for a month or two at a time. Winter temps seldom go below 30.
• The Tundra engine has dual turbochargers, direct injection, variable valve timing, and (I think) a variable oil pump.
• The 2022 – current turbo V6 engine is well known for having excessive wear of its main bearings, sometimes leading to seizing of the engine. These engines are getting replaced by the manufacturer for the most part, but naturally I would like to avoid this situation. I suspect using an oil with a higher High-Temperature High Shear (HTHS) would help. I don’t think use of 0W-20 is the primary cause of these bearing issues, and an oil with higher HTHS won’t guarantee this problem doesn’t happen, but I believe it would help, especially in my high-heat operating conditions.
• The owner’s manuals for these engines spec a 0W-20 (which I have been using for years in my other vehicles)

What I am considering: I am considering using an oil that meets the Dexos R specification. So far, the lowest viscosity oil I have found that meets Dexos-R is 0W-40. Naturally, the 40 weight is significantly thicker at operating temps than 20 weight. But the Dexos-R is far more stringent than Dexos 1 Gen 3. The advantages I see of using an oil meeting this specs:

• Higher HTHS – which would help with bearing wear.
• The Dexos-R spec has much more stringent Low-speed pre-ignition requirements than Dexos-1 Gen 3.
• The Dexos-R spec has extremely stringent requirements for deposits in turbochargers in high-heat conditions – and this engine has two turbochargers.

Here are the concerns about using an oil like this:

• I think variable-speed oil pumps are calibrated according to the viscosity of oil that is recommended – can anyone confirm this? If that’s correct, using a 40-weight instead of a 20 weight could cause the oil flow to be significantly reduced – since at a given pressure, a higher-viscosity would flow less at a given pressure than a lower-viscosity.
• I have heard variable-valve timing engines (like this one) use oil pressure to control valve timing. A 0W-40 might cause valve timing to be altered from using a 0W-20 weight. Comments?
• Naturally, there could be warranty concerns.

Anyone out there have comments on this? Should I consider a higher-viscosity oil, or am I nuts? Perhaps I am over thinking this, but then again, this is BITOG... If not a Dexos-R oil, what should I consider for my conditions? I’d like to settle on a plan before I purchase this vehicle.

YouTube channel "Idocars" tore one down recently. 2 spun main bearings. Toyota initially said "debris" in the manufacturing process was to blame, but unless they are hauling in truckloads of new debris to insert into the process, seems all the debris would have worked its way out of the process by now.

It is my own speculation, but the main cap girdle doesn't seem to be built to hold the 500LbFt of torque that motor makes, I believe the mains are moving under heavy load.

 

[edyvw]

Those that claim higher viscosity won't fix the issue may be (technically) incorrect, to a point. The lack of pressure to the #1 bearing seems to be a key issue. Higher viscosity will reduce the oil escapes elsewhere and is much more likely to feed the #1 bearing correctly. Even with the pump operating in low pressure mode.

5W-30 is a first step.

The statement above about HTHS being important for wear is very accurate. Higher, up to about 4.0 or so, significantly reduces rates of wear!! Period end of story.

However, if we compare a 5W-30 with an HTHS of 3.8 and a straight 40 with an HTHS of 3.8, the more viscous oil will provide more protection and lower wear rates. In other words, the actual viscosity at operating temperature under low shear is what provides the minimum film thickness and in my example the straight 40 will provide far more film thickness in normal conditions (such as this #1 bearing issue). Reducing wear.

Put another way, the absolute film thickness before shear matters.

I think higher HTHS will potentially delay problems to a point, to give a good ownership experience to the first owner.
Maybe. In my vocabulary, anything boosted is at least 3.5cP.

 

[Brian123]

Anyone out there have comments on this?

I have quite a bit!

? Should I consider a higher-viscosity oil, or am I nuts?

You are not nuts, just someone who posts about Motor Oil!

Perhaps I am over thinking this, but then again, this is BITOG... If not a Dexos-R oil, what should I consider for my conditions? I’d like to settle on a plan before I purchase this vehicle.

You are not overthinking this, that is what I do!
Here is the plan, just go out and use Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and change the oil either every 5000 miles or get a used oil analysis with TBN to show how long the oil can go. You seem to really want this car, I could be wrong, but my thought is that using a quality oil like Mobil 1 ESP with a HTHS number of 3.5 should be ok. This Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is a great oil, but it is not a long drain oil. The Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is the best bang for the buck with reasonable OCI's.

 

[edyvw]

I have quite a bit!

You are not nuts, just someone who posts about Motor Oil!

You are not overthinking this, that is what I do!
Here is the plan, just go out and use Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 and change the oil either every 5000 miles or get a used oil analysis with TBN to show how long the oil can go. You seem to really want this car, I could be wrong, but my thought is that using a quality oil like Mobil 1 ESP with a HTHS number of 3.5 should be ok. This Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is a great oil, but it is not a long drain oil. The Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is the best bang for the buck with reasonable OCI's.

ESP 0W30 is better choice as ZDDP is higher as well as it is ester/PAO/GTL.
ESP is long drain. I wouldn’t run in V35 pass 5k, but LL04, MB229.51/2 and VW504.00 all have 18,000mls OCI requirement.

 

[btanchors]

Thank you all for the responses. To respond to the gist of many of the responses - why buy a vehicle that needs a "mitigation plan" in the first place?

The only other half-ton pickup trucks I would consider is Ford F-150, or the Chevys. I will not consider a Ram, I don't like or want them.

Show me a Ford or a Chevy that has no engine problems. They don't exist. At least Toyota is replacing the engines under warranty.

I do agree that this engine problem is NOT due to "manufacturing debris left behind". I do believe it is a design defect of some kind. I also believe no oil will fix a design problem. But I do believe that except for the engine, the rest of the Tundra is better quality than the Fords, GMs, and Rams I've been seeing. So my plan is to:

1) Delay purchase until the 2027 model years are out. Maybe the solution will be in place by that time, maybe not.

2) I plan to purchase a 10 year, 125,000 mile extended warranty from Toyota, as I have with past vehicles.

3) Upgrade the oil, as we have been discussing.

4) Perform an oil analysis at every oil change, which I do anyway with my other vehicles.

I get many question the choice of this model due to the engine issues but I have already decided to focus on acquiring this model - and I want to focus on the type of oil used and how it may help - not solve - the issue. Several responses above seem to suggest Mobil 1 ESP - I will consider that as one of the oil choice candidates.

 

[panthermike]

Thank you all for the responses. To respond to the gist of many of the responses - why buy a vehicle that needs a "mitigation plan" in the first place?

The only other half-ton pickup trucks I would consider is Ford F-150, or the Chevys. I will not consider a Ram, I don't like or want them.

Show me a Ford or a Chevy that has no engine problems. They don't exist. At least Toyota is replacing the engines under warranty.

I do agree that this engine problem is NOT due to "manufacturing debris left behind". I do believe it is a design defect of some kind. I also believe no oil will fix a design problem. But I do believe that except for the engine, the rest of the Tundra is better quality than the Fords, GMs, and Rams I've been seeing. So my plan is to:

1) Delay purchase until the 2027 model years are out. Maybe the solution will be in place by that time, maybe not.

2) I plan to purchase a 10 year, 125,000 mile extended warranty from Toyota, as I have with past vehicles.

3) Upgrade the oil, as we have been discussing.

4) Perform an oil analysis at every oil change, which I do anyway with my other vehicles.

I get many question the choice of this model due to the engine issues but I have already decided to focus on acquiring this model - and I want to focus on the type of oil used and how it may help - not solve - the issue. Several responses above seem to suggest Mobil 1 ESP - I will consider that as one of the oil choice candidates.

I get that, in general most people haven't had issues getting the engine replaced. Are F150's having engine issues?

I like all 4 points of your plan!

 

[edyvw]

Thank you all for the responses. To respond to the gist of many of the responses - why buy a vehicle that needs a "mitigation plan" in the first place?

The only other half-ton pickup trucks I would consider is Ford F-150, or the Chevys. I will not consider a Ram, I don't like or want them.

Show me a Ford or a Chevy that has no engine problems. They don't exist. At least Toyota is replacing the engines under warranty.

I do agree that this engine problem is NOT due to "manufacturing debris left behind". I do believe it is a design defect of some kind. I also believe no oil will fix a design problem. But I do believe that except for the engine, the rest of the Tundra is better quality than the Fords, GMs, and Rams I've been seeing. So my plan is to:

1) Delay purchase until the 2027 model years are out. Maybe the solution will be in place by that time, maybe not.

2) I plan to purchase a 10 year, 125,000 mile extended warranty from Toyota, as I have with past vehicles.

3) Upgrade the oil, as we have been discussing.

4) Perform an oil analysis at every oil change, which I do anyway with my other vehicles.

I get many question the choice of this model due to the engine issues but I have already decided to focus on acquiring this model - and I want to focus on the type of oil used and how it may help - not solve - the issue. Several responses above seem to suggest Mobil 1 ESP - I will consider that as one of the oil choice candidates.

Keep in mind, if you must stick to 0W20, ESP 0W20 X2 has same additive package as ESP 0W30 with high ZDDP level.