0W-16 Strength & Durability

[rondhol]

Yes they are.. Are you a mechanics in a dealership? Or someone work in RnD?

 

[kschachn]

Yes they are.. Are you a mechanics in a dealership? Or someone work in RnD?

You are free to post references to these problems so we can all be as convinced as you.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes they are.. Are you a mechanics in a dealership? Or someone work in RnD?

Are you aware of the relationship between viscosity and temperature?

A short-tripped car in Calgary will see much heavier viscosity running 0w-16 then the same car run in Florida on 5w-30 or even commuting to Toronto in SW Ontario. Engines CANNOT be as sensitive to viscosity as some assume, otherwise, cold climates would be plagued with engine failures.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I wonder if these temperature charts for oil are remnants from the old days? Back then it was common to see cars overheat in the middle of summer.

I have driven my car with temperatures in the teens and temperatures over 100. My engine temperature reading on the instrument panel is the same, about 215-220. I imagine most cars are like that now.

I'm agreeing with you, just about everything with cars is better now.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

Are you aware of the relationship between viscosity and temperature?

A short-tripped car in Calgary will see much heavier viscosity running 0w-16 then the same car run in Florida on 5w-30 or even commuting to Toronto in SW Ontario. Engines CANNOT be as sensitive to viscosity as some assume, otherwise, cold climates would be plagued with engine failures.

The longer the trip, the higher the viscosity you need? Or does it stay "in grade"

 

[OVERKILL]

The longer the trip, the higher the viscosity you need? Or does it stay "in grade"

The point is that operating viscosity is dramatically different from what corresponds with the number on the bottle. If an engine is tested with 0w-16, it should be fine, regardless of ambient temperature with that grade in the pan. However, in application, ambient temperature as well as usage profile both play a significant role in what the actual operating viscosity is that the engine sees, and that's why engines cannot be as sensitive to viscosity as some believe.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Force feeding the bearings are fine but given you have the oil pump at a standard what does higher than normal PSI mean as to your choice in oil viscosity? Suppose you know the RPM and oil temperature and know the target PSI. Ferrari adjusts the oil viscosity recommended by the oil PSI.

Wear is in the lower RPM and cold oil. And that starts with the 0w and then goes mainly to that 212 F point, unless we are talking track cars.

Oil viscosity isn't chosen because of the oil pump design. Oil viscosity is chosen based on the engine components design - and it's pushed to the limit of "just how low can you go" driven by CAFE. The PD pump is designed to ensure adequate oil volume is supplied to all the moving parts without over pressurizing any components, like the oil filter and oil seals, etc that may not be able to take too high an oil pressure. The use of a pressure relief valve in the PD pump ensures nothing gets damaged from excessive oil pressure.

Oil pressure is a result of forcing a given oil volume through a given oiling system flow resistance at a given viscosity. It's better to have adequate flow of oil to all engine components at a lower oil pressure then it is to have inadequate oil flow at a higher pressure. Engineers design an oiling system and the PD pump as a total system to achieve adequate (or more) oil flow within a reasonable operating oil pressure range.

 

[ZeeOSix]

There are already some cases of 2.5L and 3.5L camry D4-S that has problems from using 5w-30 instead of 0W-16. It was information from Master Diagnostic Level Mechanics in a dealership. It is up to you, your cars, and your money for repair.
Off course, it is in American made Toyota in the range beyond 200 000 km problems.

What kind of problems?

 

[Bill_W]

Oil viscosity isn't chosen because of the oil pump design. Oil viscosity is chosen based on the engine components design - and it's pushed to the limit of "just how low can you go" driven by CAFE. The PD pump is designed to ensure adequate oil volume is supplied to all the moving parts without over pressurizing any components, like the oil filter and oil seals, etc that may not be able to take too high an oil pressure. The use of a pressure relief valve in the PD pump ensures nothing gets damaged from excessive oil pressure.

Oil pressure is a result of forcing a given oil volume through a given oiling system flow resistance at a given viscosity. It's better to have adequate flow of oil to all engine components at a lower oil pressure then it is to have inadequate oil flow at a higher pressure. Engineers design an oiling system and the PD pump as a total system to achieve adequate (or more) oil flow within a reasonable operating oil pressure range.

You can overdo any thing. The engine bearings are designed for oil flow. Every exit for the oil PSI is in parallel with with one source, the oil pump. Too thin of oil has problems as too thick. There is CAFE and there is what the engine is engineered for. 30% of engine cooling depends on the oil flow. Oil temperature varies inside the engine. IMO the engineered oil flow is directly proportional to viscosity even though we are talking about a positive displacement oil pump because there are multiple outlets for that oil can go. There is a perfect viscosity for every engine. The only way to determine is the PSI. I always think of the main bearings but the pistons have oil jets that spray under the pistons. Same as low SAPS. Sulfated ash is used in the engine valve seats and piston rings. Always a happy medium.

 

[kschachn]

You can overdo any thing. The engine bearings are designed for oil flow. Every exit for the oil PSI is in parallel with with one source, the oil pump. Too thin of oil has problems as too thick. There is CAFE and there is what the engine is engineered for. 30% of engine cooling depends on the oil flow. Oil temperature varies inside the engine. IMO the engineered oil flow is directly proportional to viscosity even though we are talking about a positive displacement oil pump because there are multiple outlets for that oil can go. There is a perfect viscosity for every engine. The only way to determine is the PSI. I always think of the main bearings but the pistons have oil jets that spray under the pistons. Same as low SAPS. Sulphated ash is used in the engine valve seats and piston rings. Always a happy medium.

You keep talking about flow when the most important thing is the MOFT.

 

[Astro14]

The longer the trip, the higher the viscosity you need? Or does it stay "in grade"

It's not a question of trip length, it's a question of oil temperature. Some engines will develop high oil temperature over a long trip. Most will not.

They will reach a steady oil temperature that is a function of engine load, engine operating temperature, and environmental factors like outside air temperature and air density.

When you say, "in grade" are you meaning deterioration of oil performance? Or do you mean in increase in temperature, that changes the operating viscosity of a particular grade of oil?

 

[ZeeOSix]

You can overdo any thing. The engine bearings are designed for oil flow. Every exit for the oil PSI is in parallel with with one source, the oil pump. Too thin of oil has problems as too thick. There is CAFE and there is what the engine is engineered for. 30% of engine cooling depends on the oil flow. Oil temperature varies inside the engine. IMO the engineered oil flow is directly proportional to viscosity even though we are talking about a positive displacement oil pump because there are multiple outlets for that oil can go.

As already mentioned, the oiling system is designed to ensure proper/adequate oil flow to ALL required components so that they do not fail from oil starvation. We have seen some engine designs where there are component failures regardless of what oil viscosity it used because the lack of oil flow is a very bad thing and causes moving parts to smoke themselves in pretty short order.

Oiling systems use different sized galleries and oil supply paths, and even oil flow control orifices where necessary to ensure the proper volume of oil goes through all the different flow paths ("outlets") of the oiling system. Engineers ensure that one or two flow paths don't "hog" the majority of the oil flow and hence "starve" a different path of the oiling system. When engineers mess up and cause something like that (some paths to be oil starved), then we see engines with failures that are a caused by lack of lubrication instead of the use of the "wrong" viscosity.

Then there is the issue of the oil viscosity being thick enough or not. You can have plenty of oil flow, but that does not ensure an completely adequate MOFT. You can not fix inadequate MOFT with more oil pressure and flow.

There is a perfect viscosity for every engine. The only way to determine is the PSI. I always think of the main bearings but the pistons have oil jets that spray under the pistons. Same as low SAPS. Sulfated ash is used in the engine valve seats and piston rings. Always a happy medium.

Not really. More like there is a perfect viscosity for every engine based on the use conditions of that engine in a specific environment.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

The point is that operating viscosity is dramatically different from what corresponds with the number on the bottle. If an engine is tested with 0w-16, it should be fine, regardless of ambient temperature with that grade in the pan. However, in application, ambient temperature as well as usage profile both play a significant role in what the actual operating viscosity is that the engine sees, and that's why engines cannot be as sensitive to viscosity as some believe.

Okay, well explained.. I may need to read it several times but, if it is hot out and driven hard, the engine oil may be different viscosity than what it says it normally is.

and that's why engines cannot be as sensitive to viscosity as some believe.

Just so I'm with you.. because of what it is tested/rated/certified with, would be the base from which it sees that dramatically different viscosity?

 

[Bill_W]

You keep talking about flow when the most important thing is the MOFT.

Under the MOFT should never happen with the recommended viscosity oil. But wear metals will show if you get a UOA and MOFT is not met. By the way my 2019 Miata takes 0w-20. In Europe they give two choices of Mazda oil 0w-20 and 5w-30. Guess what oil viscosity you think the Miata guys swing to. I have TGMO in there now but ordered Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w-20 for the next fill.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

It's not a question of trip length, it's a question of oil temperature. Some engines will develop high oil temperature over a long trip. Most will not.

They will reach a steady oil temperature that is a function of engine load, engine operating temperature, and environmental factors like outside air temperature and air density.

When you say, "in grade" are you meaning deterioration of oil performance? Or do you mean in increase in temperature, that changes the operating viscosity of a particular grade of oil?

By "in grade," I would be asking.. does it retain its HTHS or possibly other SAE J300 properties that would keep it as a 20, a 30, a 40.. a 50, a 16. So.. would the oil become "less than," which is why some believe you need to go thicker.

Without making this thread all about me. I frequently take long, long, long, long high speed (highway) trips, with city driving at the end, my car can be in motion for 15 hours at a time. 10+ hours, even tonight. I change my oil somewhat frequently but I usually get it right to 5k OCI on average.. should I worry about my oil protecting less?

Lately I've been using 5W-30 and participating in HPL research of what filters look like with their product.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Okay, well explained.. I may need to read it several times but, if it is hot out and driven hard, the engine oil may be different viscosity than what it says it normally is.

If an engine is ran very hard on a race track for instance, of course the oil will be much hotter than if it was just cruising down the highway at much lower RPM. When you're cruising down the interstate in high gear at 70 MPH the engine revs are really pretty low, and therefore the oil temperature will only be around 200-220F. Plus, cars get better cooling when cruising at 70 MPH then they do cruising around town without 70 MPH flowing into the front end. On a race track that same vehicle might get oil temperature near 275-300 depending on some factors.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

If an engine is ran very hard on a race track for instance, of course the oil will be much hotter than if it was just cruising down the highway at much lower RPM. When you're cruising down the interstate in high gear at 70 MPH the engine revs are really pretty low, and therefore the oil temperature will only be around 200-220F. On a race track that same vehicle might get oil temperature near 275-300 depending on some factors.

Okay, new questions before I really need to hit the road, for a night of driving until the sun comes up.. dont Ram Air and airflow also help cool? I always felt the cooling system was the #1 thing keeping engine temperature, including indirectly oil, temps in check, and how car manufacturers got to spec their 20-grade (now 16-grade seems to be what is next) oils.

Not asking to be difficult. Asking because we are talking about it. I'll read reply when I can.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Under the MOFT should never happen with the recommended oil. But wear metals will show if you get a UOA.

Only if the oil is thick enough to ensure that moving parts don't excessively rub on each other. The thinner the MOFT becomes, the more rubbing contact will occur. It's the whole backbone of tribology and the basic correlation between oil viscosity and MOFT (film thickness) that has been true for 100 years.

 

[kschachn]

Under the MOFT should never happen with the recommended oil. But wear metals will show if you get a UOA and MOFT is not met. By the way my 2019 Miata takes 0w-20. In Europe they give two choices of Mazda oil 0w-20 and 5w-30. Guess what oil viscosity you think the Miata guys swing to. I have TGMO in there now but ordered Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w-20 for the next fill.

That’s not supported by reality. It’s the reason “acceptable” wear came into use by automakers.

Even so, it’s still not about flow.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Okay, new questions before I really need to hit the road, for a night of driving until the sun comes up.. dont Ram Air and airflow also help cool? I always felt the cooling system was the #1 thing keeping engine temperature, including indirectly oil, temps in check, and how car manufacturers got to spec their 20-grade (now 16-grade seems to be what is next) oils.

Not asking to be difficult. Asking because we are talking about it. I'll read reply when I can.

Air flow into the engine compartment helps dissipate heat off the engine. Heat is also lost through the oil pan. Most modern cars have a water-to-oil cooler which helps keep the oil temperature down. Just like the link I posted above, even in a modern engine using a water-to-oil cooler, the outside ambient air temperature effect can still be seen on the oil temperature.

Water-to-oil coolers, and air-to-oil coolers certainly help with the thinner used oils, as part of their use success is to control the oil temperature so they don't thin down to the point of causing engine damage. Keeping 16 at say 180F would be like running 30 at 200 F as an example.