0W-16 Oil....... Really ??

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Now you agree with Hatt, so what is it?

But that's CLEARLY not the same as what you are now claiming, which is the use of 0W20 if, and only if 0W16 is not available, and MUST be changed back at next OCI.

Originally Posted By: billt460
"Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-16
SAE 0W-16 is the best choice for
good fuel economy and good starting
in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-16 is not available, SAE
0W-20 oil may be used. However,
it must be replaced with SAE 0W-
16 at the next oil change."


The "must be replaces with 0W-16" statement is made by Toyota in the OM. Only reason they say that is because they've promised to push the use of the thinnest oil possible to certain markets.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Shannon, on your graphic it shows the US circle ending out around 3000rpm which is indicative of a normal urban grocery getter. These studies however try to lump everyone into a certain range. For a driver living in the Rockies, the southwest desert, the farm areas of the Midwest and lots of rural places in between, driving patterns are completely different than in say Orange County CA. Higher speeds and engine loads would place it closer to the autobahn.


It's Honda's data, from field tests.

It's a probabalistic chart, showing the frequency of time that engines spend at RPM and load points...if more people spend their time at 1,500 RPM and 70kPa then that's where the cluster is.

Yes, there are people in the rockies, how many motor vehicle minutes are spent at those loads RPM, compared to the bulk of American Motoring ?

I could posit, but it's a WAG, that that little cluster at 3,000RPM wide open throttle contains those users and those hills...it would make sense.

Which is why with high confidence, they can specify certain grades in the US. Note that it's revs that make oil temperature, not load (revs contribute more, they aren't exclusive), knowing that the vast average of the time is in those ranges...then have

Originally Posted By: hatt
From your manual:
Quote:
The 16 in 0W-16 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the
oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher
value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or
under extreme load conditions.


To allow the outliers in terms of operation.

Note that Honda, when using the same assemblies for road and outboards spec 0W20 for the road vehicle, and 10W30 for the outboard, with a minimum HTHS (after use) of 3.3.




Thanks for that explanation.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's Honda's data, from field tests.

It's a probabalistic chart, showing the frequency of time that engines spend at RPM and load points...if more people spend their time at 1,500 RPM and 70kPa then that's where the cluster is.


To clarify for some, the right hand side scale marked "Inlet Manifold Pressure (kPa)" is really the vacuum level in the manifold (ie, negative pressure). Kind of confuses the chart IMO to label the right side scale as they did.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Now you agree with Hatt, so what is it?

But that's CLEARLY not the same as what you are now claiming, which is the use of 0W20 if, and only if 0W16 is not available, and MUST be changed back at next OCI.

Originally Posted By: billt460
"Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-16
SAE 0W-16 is the best choice for
good fuel economy and good starting
in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-16 is not available, SAE
0W-20 oil may be used. However,
it must be replaced with SAE 0W-
16 at the next oil change."


The "must be replaces with 0W-16" statement is made by Toyota in the OM. Only reason they say that is because they've promised to push the use of the thinnest oil possible to certain markets.
They did the same thing on my 2010 Camry OM. 5-20 allowed but next oil change must be 0-20.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's Honda's data, from field tests.

It's a probabalistic chart, showing the frequency of time that engines spend at RPM and load points...if more people spend their time at 1,500 RPM and 70kPa then that's where the cluster is.


To clarify for some, the right hand side scale marked "Inlet Manifold Pressure (kPa)" is really the vacuum level in the manifold (ie, negative pressure). Kind of confuses the chart IMO to label the right side scale as they did.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.


How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As said before, 0W-16 should be fine as long as the vehicle is driven in a benign way on the public streets, and no undue extended periods of stress is put on the engine.


How else and where else are you going to drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry?


Don't let your kid take it to Laguna Seca without first swapping out that 0W-16.

 

[Gokhan]

According to tests by JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, 0W-16 results in 2% improvement in fuel economy (possible $$ in annual savings) in comparison to 0W-20 and less wear in comparison to conventional oil in the intended applications. It looks like a win - win situation to use 0W-16 if that's what's recommended for your engine. Don't forget that these engines and oils are results of many years of research -- not products of conspiracies as some like to think of them. The new, thinner oils feature the newest, developing technology in polymer friction modifiers.

ENEOS 0W-16 (PDF link)

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to tests by JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, 0W-16 results in 2% improvement in fuel economy (possible $$ in annual savings) in comparison to 0W-20 and less wear in comparison to conventional oil in the intended applications.


LOL..
Quote:
1: Based on our internal test data of the Japanese Fuel Saving Test (JC08
Test at Cold Mode). It is not guaranteed under any driving conditions.


What was the "conventional oil" used for the wear comparisons ?

certainly not 0W20, or 0W16...were they even friction modified ?

Advertisements aren't technical papers

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to tests by JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, 0W-16 results in 2% improvement in fuel economy (possible $$ in annual savings) in comparison to 0W-20 and less wear in comparison to conventional oil in the intended applications. It looks like a win - win situation to use 0W-16 if that's what's recommended for your engine. Don't forget that these engines and oils are results of many years of research -- not products of conspiracies as some like to think of them. The new, thinner oils feature the newest, developing technology in polymer friction modifiers.

ENEOS 0W-16 (PDF link)


Does that mean that Honda officially back-spec'd the Fit to 0W16 from MY 2013 on for the Japanese market, or all Fits?

 

[Shannow]

Honda for the Japanese Domestic Market have had a number of Non API grades for ages...they petitioned the API for new grades to give them a "box" to fit into, which then allows standardisation, and production by others.

 

[ZeeOSix]

One thing I'd be concerned about with 0W-16 is any further decrease in viscosity due to extended OCI use, especially with a DI engine and wondering if the oil will maintain enough viscosity to provide adequate engine protection over the entire long OCI.

I asked that question in the up coming Pennzoil 0W-16 Q&A.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Honda for the Japanese Domestic Market have had a number of Non API grades for ages...they petitioned the API for new grades to give them a "box" to fit into, which then allows standardisation, and production by others.


Thanks.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
One thing I'd be concerned about with 0W-16 is any further decrease in viscosity due to extended OCI use, especially with a DI engine and wondering if the oil will maintain enough viscosity to provide adequate engine protection over the entire long OCI.

I asked that question in the up coming Pennzoil 0W-16 Q&A.


I can't imagine there being much of a safety margin. I'm pretty sure in an engine specifically designed to run on a 0W16 they took that into account. We'll know for sure in a couple of years as some real world miles are logged and UOA reports start coming in. Having said that I would not use it in an engine that was back spec'd for it though. Designed for it yes, back spec'd no thanks.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
According to tests by JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, 0W-16 results in 2% improvement in fuel economy (possible $$ in annual savings) in comparison to 0W-20 and less wear in comparison to conventional oil in the intended applications.


LOL..
Quote:
1: Based on our internal test data of the Japanese Fuel Saving Test (JC08
Test at Cold Mode). It is not guaranteed under any driving conditions.


What was the "conventional oil" used for the wear comparisons ?

certainly not 0W20, or 0W16...were they even friction modified ?

Advertisements aren't technical papers

They did scientific research by running JC08, didn't they? JC08 has two modes: cold-start and hot-start. Cold-start mode -- the one used here -- applies to most people's driving. Of course, your actual mileage will always vary, as the disclaimer says.

JC08 test cycle

Fuel-economy and emissions test cycles

The friction modifiers used are brand-new and they haven't been used in 0W-20 according to them. It's been well-known that the developing new friction modifiers is the key for the GF-6B thinner oils, as they go into the elastohydrodynamic (EHD) lubrication region, and research has focused on this in recent years. There is a ton of info on this ongoing GF-6B thin-oil research on friction modifiers, including the novel polymer friction modifiers used in ENEOS 0W-16, out there. Sure, the drawing provided by ENEOS is not scientific but an illustration for advertising purposes.

Going low (viscosity)

They also say ENEOS 0W-16 is made in USA and is the factory-fill OEM oil but I don't know if Toyota 0W-16 SN 00279-16QTE is ENEOS or ExxonMobil.

 

[bulwnkl]

Deleted. I don't want to enter the discussion after all.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I read what Hatt said, and was in full agreement with it...


If you had you would have known that other weight oils were permissible besides 0W-16. You did not, or you wouldn't have made a fool out of yourself badgering me to "prove" it to you. Which means you are either lying, or else your reading comprehension is non existent. Either way it's par for the course.

 

[Patman]

Let's keep this topic civil, as there is some good technical discussion in here and it would be a shame to have to lock it up due to it going off course....

 

[Dallas69]

Here in Texas in the summer I would not feel comfortable running a 16 grade oil.
Day after day of 100+ heat is asking a lot.
Maybe in moderate temps but I would have to use at least a 20 wt,which is what I run in my wife's car.
Jury is out until I see some real world results.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Here in Texas in the summer I would not feel comfortable running a 16 grade oil.
Day after day of 100+ heat is asking a lot.
Maybe in moderate temps but I would have to use at least a 20 wt,which is what I run in my wife's car.
Jury is out until I see some real world results.


Hot summers really don't mean a thing. Your engine really won't know the difference between a 100 degree day and an 80 degree day. The oil temperature is still going to be roughly the same.