Zirconium is the marker in VW508.00. It is a fuel economy oil

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wemay

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https://en.oelcheck.com/wiki/Zirconium_%E2%80%93_why_does_this_element_pop_up_in_lab_reports%3F

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Zirconium - why does this element pop up in lab reports?

For many years now, automotive manufacturers have been able to reduce fuel consumption rates and CO2 emissions while improving the performance of the engines that they produce. The latest generation of engine oils - known as „fuel economy oils" - are also making a significant contribution. These engine oils, which are categorised as the new SAE classes 0W-16 and 0W-20, are 50% more viscous than the most common standard oils used today in viscosity class (X) W-40 (viscosity of approx. 7 mm²/s at 100 °C compared to approx. 14 mm²/s). This much lower viscosity reduces the rate of inner friction loss in the lubricant. Furthermore, modern, friction-reducing additives (or ‚friction modifiers‘) positively influence fuel consumption. Between 1 % and 3 % more fuel can be saved through the use of these less viscous engine oils, with the percentage very much depending on the conditions of use of the engine in question. However, viscosity is the most important property of oil when it comes to creating a protective lubricating film between all moving parts in the engine. The lower the viscosity, the thinner the lubricating film is on the parts, which increases the risk of wear and coming into contact with rough surfaces.

Basic oils with a high stability and excellent viscosity temperature characteristics (or high viscosity index) are used in fuel economy oils, meaning that the oil does not become too viscous at high temperatures. Despite this, the engines in which these special oils are used also have to be structurally modified to cater for the lower viscosities and thinner lubricating films. Fuel economy oils have now been adopted for use in many new vehicles, and it is extremely likely that in future, their qualities will be taken advantage of in other industries as well. Users should, however, be cautious about using these oils in older car engines. The low-viscosity engine oils should really only be used in engines where this has been expressly approved in advance. If this approval is not received, their usage may lead to increased wear and tear and even damage to the engine. Despite this, vehicle manufacturers fear that these low-viscosity fuel economy oils may be used in older engines anyway due to their advantages - this is despite the fact that these special lubricants are not suitable for use. To find out about the oil type used as quickly as possible in the event of engine issues, zirconium (Zr) is used as a marker in many fuel economy oils for passenger cars.

This element is especially suitable to be used as a marker, as it does not serve any other purpose in the lubricant and cannot arise as an impurity or wear element. As such, if zirconium is detected in an engine oil sample (at a rate of approximately 20 mg/kg for fuel economy oils), this proves that a fuel economy oil has been used. OELCHECK now specifies the zirconium content along with around 30 other elements via ICP. However, zirconium is only listed in the lab report for engine oil analyses and only if the content is more than 1 mg/kg. The zirconium content indicates whether fresh and used oils comprise fuel economy engine oils. This makes it simple to determine the type of fresh oil to be applied or type of oil that was used in the event of damage. This useful marker is already in widespread use. For example, all fuel economy oils approved by VW have to contain zirconium.



I just can't see VW/Audi/Porsche going through this trouble if their engine wasn't modified in some way to accept this oil vs a 3.5 HT/HS. But, who knows.
 
Yet here, there's a theory it helps prevent LSPI too...
It is a very long read. I only quoted the intro.


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0016986.html

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CHEVRON CORPORATION (P.O. BOX 6006, SAN RAMON, CA, 94583-0806, US)

Claims:

What is claimed is:

1. A method for preventing or reducing low speed pre-ignition in a direct injected, boosted, spark ignited internal combustion engine, said method comprising the step of lubricating the crankcase of the engine with a lubricating oil composition comprising from about 50 to about 3000 ppm of metal from at least one zirconium-containing compound, based on the total weight of the lubricating oil composition...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by zeng
All FE oils, including VW 504 507 ?


Not sure but I believe only VW508.00
 
Ok cool, I just so happen to make my living finding zirconium (among a few other minerals) - job security..hahaha
 
Originally Posted by wemay


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These engine oils, which are categorised as the new SAE classes 0W-16 and 0W-20, are 50% more viscous than the most common standard oils used today in viscosity class (X) W-40 (viscosity of approx. 7 mm²/s at 100 °C compared to approx. 14 mm²/s).


Really?

confused2.gif


You sure you got a reliable source?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mark
Originally Posted by wemay


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These engine oils, which are categorised as the new SAE classes 0W-16 and 0W-20, are 50% more viscous than the most common standard oils used today in viscosity class (X) W-40 (viscosity of approx. 7 mm²/s at 100 °C compared to approx. 14 mm²/s).


Really?

confused2.gif


You sure you got a reliable source?


Perhaps a translation error?
 
Hmmm....perhaps somebody who doesn't understand oil thinks that a 20 grade is half of a 40 grade. It's not. A 40 grade would have to have an HTHS over 5.0 for that to be true.

Still thinner than I care for though.
 
I had to add a fair amount of 0w40 to get my MOTUL 0w20 up to where the engine ran o.k. without clattering.
And it wouldn't rev either .

Previously had issue with the bulk 5W40 the dealer put in by Mistake on purpose.

I think the 1.4t wants an ILSAC 5w30
 
I found this information more interesting...


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0016986.html

Quote

CHEVRON CORPORATION (P.O. BOX 6006, SAN RAMON, CA, 94583-0806, US)

Claims:

What is claimed:

1. A method for preventing or reducing low speed pre-ignition in a direct injected, boosted, spark ignited internal combustion engine, said method comprising the step of lubricating the crankcase of the engine with a lubricating oil composition comprising from about 50 to about 3000 ppm of metal from at least one zirconium-containing compound, based on the total weight of the lubricating oil composition...
 
Originally Posted by TiGeo
Ok cool, I just so happen to make my living finding zirconium (among a few other minerals) - job security..hahaha


That is cool indeed!




Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I had to add a fair amount of 0w40 to get my MOTUL 0w20 up to where the engine ran o.k. without clattering.
And it wouldn't rev either .

Previously had issue with the bulk 5W40 the dealer put in by Mistake on purpose.

I think the 1.4t wants an ILSAC 5w30


After driving around with the 0W-40 for a couple days now, i do notice a slight sluggishness off the line, but this might be psychological.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I had to add a fair amount of 0w40 to get my MOTUL 0w20 up to where the engine ran o.k. without clattering.
And it wouldn't rev either .

Previously had issue with the bulk 5W40 the dealer put in by Mistake on purpose.

I think the 1.4t wants an ILSAC 5w30


DI engines always have that clatter though. It's a normal characteristic of DI. It's the high pressure fuel injectors that cause it.
 
Originally Posted by BurntMusic
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I had to add a fair amount of 0w40 to get my MOTUL 0w20 up to where the engine ran o.k. without clattering.
And it wouldn't rev either .

Previously had issue with the bulk 5W40 the dealer put in by Mistake on purpose.

I think the 1.4t wants an ILSAC 5w30


DI engines always have that clatter though. It's a normal characteristic of DI. It's the high pressure fuel injectors that cause it.


Not when it goes away by using a thicker oil with better HTHS number
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted by zeng
All FE oils, including VW 504 507 ?

To me 504.507 oils are really 10w30 oils in disguise. They mostly have high ccs numbers bordering on a ten weight at startup and have the high hths number. They are called fuel economy when compared to forty weight oils which Volkswagen ran for years.
 
Vw 504/507 ACEA C3 MB 229.51 BMW LL-04 are FE oils of "yesterday" (HTHS 3.5 min) ... EU had them from around 00's...till recently

Now EU is moving towards lower HTHS version of oils mentioned above.... VW 508/509 ACEA C1/C2/A5 BMW LL01FE....LL-17FE...MB...?

HTHS below 3.0....but they are really not my option
smile.gif


No mater what....I wont go below ACEA C3/C4.... HTHS 3.5 is my minimum
 
Originally Posted by KCJeep
Hmmm....perhaps somebody who doesn't understand oil thinks that a 20 grade is half of a 40 grade. It's not. A 40 grade would have to have an HTHS over 5.0 for that to be true.

Still thinner than I care for though.


Exactly. Even if it were a typo or even translation error, that doesn't make the fundamental misconception go away.

OP, you got any better sources?
 
Originally Posted by Dave_Mark
Originally Posted by KCJeep
Hmmm....perhaps somebody who doesn't understand oil thinks that a 20 grade is half of a 40 grade. It's not. A 40 grade would have to have an HTHS over 5.0 for that to be true.

Still thinner than I care for though.


Exactly. Even if it were a typo or even translation error, that doesn't make the fundamental misconception go away.

OP, you got any better sources?


Yes, in this thread there is also a study conducted by Chevron. Link is attached but is geared more towards LSPI...others show wear performance but so far the cited source is the only one discussing it as a marker.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0016986.html

This one shows it's wear characteristics significantly improve over the use of ZDDP as an additive.

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/4/3/28/htm


It was also discussed in this bitog thread concerning Motul VW508.00

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/1/main/318591/type/thread

Originally Posted by weasley

UV fluorescence disappears very quickly in use so is unlikely to show up in an end-of-service oil sample, even if it was there to start with. If the oil is a genuine, VW-approved 508 00/509 00 oil it should have Zr in it, which isn't routinely tested in UOAs.
 
It is mentioned in this oil advertisement pdf as being used as a marker in 508 "VW Blue Oil"

BRA1965-A-NEW-ERA-OF-ENGINE-OIL-BROCHURE-12PP-LR.pdf

20200417_063115.jpg
 
Originally Posted by Bonz
Has the original issue been addressed, stating that thinner oil is 50% more viscous than the thicker oil?


That's not an issue. We all know it isn't the case.
wink.gif
 
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