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Well, Seq IIIH has been replaced by C&P of oil filters as seen in ASTM-BITOG standards …
Will Mobil & SOPUS Develop R&P Equivalent ?
- Thread starter ChrisD46
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If you think they’re the only one with a dedicated engine lab, or even an impressive one, you’re sorely mistaken.
Food for thought:
The only company that can build an additive package from scratch, put it in an oil and test it, all internally?
Chevron.
No one else is completely vertically integrated from refining, additive manufacturing, lubricants blending.
That being said, Idemitsu’s engine lab in Novi is very impressive. Let alone Lubrizol’s in wickleff and Hazelton. I know Afton’s R&D center, the Ashland Technical Center’s abilities are crazy and it’s huge.
Valvoline’s claim that they’re the only oil producer with these lab capabilities is sort of false advertising. Yes, it’s Valvoline in house, that’s technically correct. But that’s because most companies sub it out to a third party independent lab for testing and verification. Or they sub it out to the additive manufacturers for testing and evaluation. Or sometimes, in the case of Oronite, it’s just technically a different company on paper, with the same parent company.
It’s the same word smithing that is used in Valvoline, and most other company’s marketing. It’s correct enough they don’t get sued.
And remember, this oil was designed for (a) big, OTR Diesel engine(s), where oil changes and down time are quite costly, Needing to get the job done in a quick and cost effective manner is paramount, especially compared to passenger cars.
I agree. I never thought that. I know the others, especially Mobil, have impressive dedicated engine labs.
I'm talking about companies like Red Line (years ago not since they were acquired by P66) where guys would run their oils and just assume they're the best on the market to find out the testing was basically putting it in their own cars and saying it works.
There was a GM article a while back that talked about the importance of having the resource to fully test.
His comment was:
"That level of testing, that level of prove-out work is really what we can bring to the table versus most smaller brands."
Valvoline only found it work because they have the resources internally to run numerous tests. I'd imagine outsourcing multiple tests to SWRI can get expensive and therefore limit you.
I agree with the comments about redline / amsoil / Lucas / et al. Others.
Most smaller brands (like myself) buy off the shelf. We let the additive companies do all the R&D for us. Because they’re always doing R&D and simply put, the market isn’t big enough for everyone to do their own R&D on that level.
Where Valvoline is being a little bit misleading, is they’re not a small brand. Sure. They’re not a Shell / Mobil / Chevron / Phillips. In lubricants. And they don’t have refining anymore, so they’re not a Citgo. Directly. But Armaco / Motiva does. But they’re big enough gallons wise they can justify their own lab. And they have the relationships to keep it busy both internally and externally.
They’re trying to walk the line of saying they’re a “small” brand, while also positioning themselves as a “major” player. Interesting strategy, when their parent company is technically the largest company in the entire O&G industry now.
Years ago Valvoline discovered what was said to be a Katrina Mobil 1 blend that wasn't meeting the basic Seq IVA wear test. They only found this out because they were able to test products in-house whenever they want, so they got brazen and went after Mobil 1. Mobil 1 being the King of synthetics is the target. It was a cheap shot in hindsight due to supply disruptions from Hurrican Katrina, but they still did it.
More recently they advetisted 24x better ad. Pure marketing....but, it was based on actual science. In fact, they stole the image from I think Oronite or Afton bc this technology is now in Hybrid motor oils.
Companies are in business to make money. ALL of them.
More recently they advetisted 24x better ad. Pure marketing....but, it was based on actual science. In fact, they stole the image from I think Oronite or Afton bc this technology is now in Hybrid motor oils.
Companies are in business to make money. ALL of them.
Sure.
Valvoline also blended about 1.3 million gallons of bad product for P66 about 12 years ago and didn’t catch it until it got out into the market place. No one is perfect. Misblends happen. But that’s when P66 & Valvoline parted ways with each other and stopped being friendly.
Fun idea about testing:
Lubrizol makes the polymer assets for tires and engine oils. So, they will do both testing at once. One facility that I actually supplied fuel to, ran 2-4 tractors, 24/7/365 on a tethered center point around a ring. It would test the engine oil and tires at the same time. As well as other oils like hydraulic / transmission / coolants / etc. and they would track the tire wear in different conditions. Wet, cold, snow, dry, hot, etc. they would change the dirt, add more sand, or add more rock and such for traction testing, tire wear and life. All that fun stuff.
Thanks for sharing what you do @Foxtrot08 I know I appreciate these industry insights.
Valvoline Instant Oil Change botched up an oil change I was lazy about on our Subaru. Stripped the drain plug and only made matters worse by trying to extract oil from top of engine. Also over torqued filter. I personally don't like the brand and never have. Their oils have always been mediocre to me.
When I think of Valvoline I think of average. But I will give credit when its due and I think they did develop a unique product that appears to be working for most users.
Valvoline Instant Oil Change botched up an oil change I was lazy about on our Subaru. Stripped the drain plug and only made matters worse by trying to extract oil from top of engine. Also over torqued filter. I personally don't like the brand and never have. Their oils have always been mediocre to me.
When I think of Valvoline I think of average. But I will give credit when its due and I think they did develop a unique product that appears to be working for most users.
Yep. None of this matters if the product works.
Well, I already mentioned if there’s nothing to restore, then what use is it, in other threads.
Not that this would be a possible test, but the only way to confirm it would be:
Find several engines that are exactly the same in terms of age, deposits, use, etc.
Then run that in a sequence test vs comparable oils. So R&P vs Mobil 1 / PUP / Pro DS / Etc. And see what the results are.
Otherwise you’re just comparing R&P vs nothing. Thus, my opinion that this strictly marketing. Because they *know* that there’s no way to factually prove their statements correct, or incorrect. As you’re not going to get the above conditions ever.
This is why, at least with heavy duty testing, you get more real world in field testing. You go find a fleet of trucks that do the same exact line haul. And you start from brand new and run it for however many miles. Then you tear however many engines down and show the results.
Doing that in a passenger car is unlikely. Because you don’t really have fleets, nor fleets that just do line haul and operate identically.
It is not that hard to do an oil change / service on a semi truck, I would guess the problem that needed cleaning was severe.
I would guess the sales numbers is the driving factor if a product stays on the shelves .
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This, plus the "up to 100%" claim (which really means, might do nothing, might clean 5%, might clean 20%, whatever). It's why all of this is absolutely not a guarantee of success like many here perceive it to be.
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Also, product ingredients availability. If it's missing a key ingredient, then shelf space gets lost.
Someone here mentioned Titanium as-to being the missing ingredient why Castrol Edge EP is unavailable in over half of this country. Evidently, Elon Musk has been hoarding it during his Moon trips....lol
BP may have their own name on the next Spacecraft to Mars. I heard Mars is loaded with Titanium.
Who knows, Superman may tag along too. Wait never mind..... he needs Krypton from inside those Black Holes.
New and improved?
And they both don’t use Infineum exclusively.
See the great shortage of 2021/2022.
As well, infineum is still an independent company. Where as Oronite is a fully owned Chevron division, that is not silo’d off.
Welp, whatever they use is included in the 50%
To add, being 100% integrated is not a guarantee of success (Chevron's products are great!)
I ran Pro-DS when the 6 quart boxes were available at Walmart. At the time I had a GMC with a 6 qt capacity so it was perfect. Never any complaints. Havoline had a taxi engine tear down back then that looked pretty clean.
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