Why Royal Enfield is Destroying Harley Davidson

[02SE]

I think it's important to mention that a big part of the reason they failed was how other Harley riders treated (and often, still treat) entry level Harley riders and any non-Harley riders. I'd say about half of Harley riders I pass don't wave. I go out of my way to even wave to Scooter riders- they are on two wheels and putting their lives in danger as much as I am, so that's worthy of respect.


My experience the last 30 years of owning Harley started off with a bit of attitude from those early Harley dealers.
Back in the 90's an employee actually barked at me " DON"T TOUCH THE BIKES " as I touched a bike!

After my Harley purchase I feel my local shop had to actually get to know me and took a good year to accept me but turned out to be some life long friends. Back then it did have a "exclusive club" vibe, and I think thats what many folks were looking for I guess as back then only a small amount of people purchased Harley.

I make no excuses of someone not being nice but thats just not my Harley owner experience as 99.9 % I find Harley folks fantastic people.

However, I find many of the new Harley Mega Dealers employees, ( Limited to the Sales / Sales management department, NOT parts, Service or Clothing ) Some of those sales management folks are the scum of the earth! Many Harley sales folks don't even ride a Harley and are not true Harley people IMO!

My mama raised me to me nice to everyone and thats what I do. I always throw a left hand out as I pass ANY motorcycle!
Scooters, not as much as in my area Scooters are reserved for the glassy eyed, red nose drunks that lost his or her license and never wave back as those folks are holding on tight with both hands trying to not fall over ...

Less face it, going back to the 40's or 50's riding a American Made ( perhaps British made too ) motorbike attracted that "Rebel without a cause" group of people that may be a bit "ruff around the edges" so you will see some of that but I see very little.

A Hells Angel don't ride a HONDA or a Royal Enfield but me riding a Harley does NOT associate me or the other 99% with a Motor Cycle club or makes me a not friendly person.

99.9% of Harley owners I run across form a local bike night, to a Spring Rally to some guy pumping gas beside me are simply GOOD people! Perhaps more old school Conservative, Salt Of The Earth, Hard working, God fearing, Bible believing, Freedom Loving, Fine American kind of people people and that fits my style just fine.

I have personally know some Church Members that will sneer at you and will make a point to actively drive someone away.
As a Church Member and Christian myself and a Harley rider I can say 100% you got bad apples and nasty people in every group.

Want to be treated bad? Do what I did, Walk into my local Indian and Royal Enfield dealer with my Harley Bar and Shield shirt on.
I was greeted with attitude, sneers, cringe culture unkind remarks from a jerk staff member.

But I have this thing called "skin" its kinda tuff and thick and I don't base my day or bike choice on what someone else does or does not do.

Riders are sometimes their own worst enemy. Treat other riders with contempt solely because they happen to be on a different brand or style of bike. Or generalizations such as "Harleys are for old guys", or Sportbike riders are all squids with a death wish...

It was mentioned that Motorcycling in general is in decline. It definitely is. I have family who owned M/C dealerships for years. They sold out when they saw the industry-wide decline coming. I still have lots of friends in that line of work, and they all say the same thing that sales are slow. Dealerships that sell Dirtbikes and Side by Sides, are usually keeping the doors open because of those products, and the service department.

I'm not sure how Harley will survive. T-shirt sales only go so far. As I said I was interested in buying another Harley, but the sales person didn't follow through, and it obviously wasn't my top priority, so I haven't been back. But if they had gotten back to me, they would have made at least one more sale... I will say that there were some young 20's guys who rode to the Demo day on Harleys. So there are some young people who like and own them. But certainly there aren't enough young people to replace the older generations who are aging-out or passing away, who were much more numerous, AND who had much more interest in riding.

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

BMW took over my local Harley dealer. That's a really bad sign

 

[AZjeff]

@SOUNDMAN5000 , curious if the 99% of HD riders in your testimony are GOOD people when you're on a Harley too? Reason I ask is 15 years ago I had posession of my father-in-laws Yamaha VStar 1300 and rode it for a few months. I can say with certainty that not 1 HD rider returned a wave in that time. It made an impression. I wasn't a road rider and gave the little hand wave to every bike I met. Some waved back and some didn't but the HD riders universally did not.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

@SOUNDMAN5000 , curious if the 99% of HD riders in your testimony are GOOD people when you're on a Harley too? Reason I ask is 15 years ago I had posession of my father-in-laws Yamaha VStar 1300 and rode it for a few months. I can say with certainty that not 1 HD rider returned a wave in that time. It made an impression. I wasn't a road rider and gave the little hand wave to every bike I met. Some waved back and some didn't but the HD riders universally did not.

All I can say is you didn't pass me or you would have receive a wave. Perhaps I'm not like everyone else or my eyesight may be not what it once was or perhaps my eyes are glued on all those cars that may hit me but as me and my bike approaches a motorcycle from the other lane, I seldom even notice or can tell if its a Harley, a Indian a metric as is flying past me at 70 mph in the opposite direction!

The real test is IF you break down on the side of the road... I find in 2026 very few bikers, cage drivers, anyone except AAA will stop and offer help... I suggest its not the brand of bike someone owns but perhaps people and people hearts now in these modern times...

 

[AZjeff]

You didn't exactly answer the question. Were/are your good interactions with HD riders anytime or when you're on your HD?

 

[fdcg27]

I agree. The SouthPark episode 20 years ago completely summed up what pop culture thought of Harley. Harley chose to continue along the same declining path and here they are.

IIHS - says there are more motorcycles registered now than ever. There data goes back 20 years.

https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/bibliography/2288

Here's a revealing bit from the same IIHS report:

Table 4b. Average and median age (years) of on-road motorcycles registered in the United States, 2002–2023
Average Median
2002 9.0 7
2003 8.8 7
2004 8.7 6
2005 8.6 6
2006 8.5 6
2007 8.4 6
2008 8.5 6
2009 8.5 6
2010 9.0 7
2011 9.5 7
2012 9.9 8
2013 10.4 9
2014 10.8 9
2015 11.1 10
2016 11.5 10
2017 11.9 11
2018 12.3 12
2019 12.8 12
2020 13.2 13
2021 13.6 13
2022 14.0 14
2023 14.3 14

Note that while the numbers registered may not have declined the average unit registered is growing older by the year, an artifact of declining new sales.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

You didn't exactly answer the question. Were/are your good interactions with HD riders always or when you're on your HD?

Ok, to try and answer your question ...
When riding my Harley IF someone waves at me I was yes. on one of my (3) Harley bikes because as of now a Harley motorcycle is the only brand of bike I own.

Would I get a bad reaction, ignored, disrespected etc If I was on a Honda or a Royal Enfield? i can't say as I never tried. However, many, many times when I am on my Harley and I hold out a hand out as a bike approaches in the other lane MANY, MANY times I get NO WAVE back from the rider in the other lane. Was that other guy on a Indian or a Honda or a Royal Enfield and didn't wave at me because i'm on a Harley? Never gave it much thought as that kinda thinking is Silly Stuff!

It never, ever even occurred to me a person would intentionally not be nice, respectful or give a wave because someone is NOT on a Harley. My thought is IF you don't get a wave back it has nothing to do with brand of bike but who knows why and who cares?

As far as me being out and about and having good interactions with HD riders being at a Bar, or a Bike Week, Harley Dealer, Indian dealer or at the mall or even at Church, I get the same reaction If I'm on my Harley, or driving my Ram truck or crown vic, Honda car, what does it matter?

 

[Silverado12]

The big attraction to Harley to me was I'm big (6'5", 285#) and most bikes just don't fit me and they are American made. Nowadays, a lot of the parts and accessories are made in Korea, Taiwan, etc. and not the USA. I had a 1992 Sportster I bought new and the welds were perfect. That could only be done by hand, esp. at that time, and by someone with big skills. If Harley wants to be successful, they will have to make their entry level bikes in the USA like the Sportster that they trashed. That has to be the dumbest move ever; they should have made it Euro compliant and it would have sold.

 

[TomYoung]

If I had a harley I'd have a magnet. A magnet for wierdos to come up to me at gas stations to "help me understand" that I could have gotten one with more chrome, or a special cam, or better mufflers, or whatever.

No thanks, I don't want that sort of attention.

They do, at present, have gobs more brand equity than Royal Enfield. Brand Equity = the amount above the cost of production you profit because your name is attached. They did a great job curating this over the past few decades and for all the reasons mentioned in this thread are losing it and poised to lose much, much more.

If I were to buy a harley, I'd find a boomer with one in his garage that he polishes and never rides. Pretty easy. Or better, the estate of said boomer who'd let it go for a reasonable, pride-free price.

Brand equity is the amount you get over the price(or under the price) of an identical product that has no brand or a product whose branding holds a value of zero but is otherwise identical. Cost of production has no impact on brand equity. It is not all that easy to measure, but for certain, Harley has mismanaged their branding at the product level. For example, if Harley were to purchase Royal Enfield bikes, and put the Harley name on them, I bet folks would mostly go for the RE. It’s a shame that the name has become synonymous with only their large cruisers, where many people can buy one once in a lifetime, and where used is nearly as good as new.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Here's a revealing bit from the same IIHS report:

Table 4b. Average and median age (years) of on-road motorcycles registered in the United States, 2002–2023
Average Median
2002 9.0 7
2003 8.8 7
2004 8.7 6
2005 8.6 6
2006 8.5 6
2007 8.4 6
2008 8.5 6
2009 8.5 6
2010 9.0 7
2011 9.5 7
2012 9.9 8
2013 10.4 9
2014 10.8 9
2015 11.1 10
2016 11.5 10
2017 11.9 11
2018 12.3 12
2019 12.8 12
2020 13.2 13
2021 13.6 13
2022 14.0 14
2023 14.3 14

Note that while the numbers registered may not have declined the average unit registered is growing older by the year, an artifact of declining new sales.

Yes I noticed that, and its very interesting.

Another interesting dataset is that touring models have been declining for a decade, but cruisers have not. If I look at the HD lineup they seem to focus on cruisers, not as much as touring - but RE does focus on cruisers heavily.

Another thing I noticed is the fastest growing segment is the dual purpose bikes. This would likely be what most first time on road buyers might like. Its what I would buy if I were going to buy an on road motorcycle. RE offers a couple, HD offers none.

To me the dataset itself proves that HD themselves seem to be the cause of there own slow demise by not catering to what the market is buying and not attracting first time buyers.

 

[fdcg27]

Yes I noticed that, and its very interesting.

Another interesting dataset is that touring models have been declining for a decade, but cruisers have not. If I look at the HD lineup they seem to focus on cruisers, not as much as touring - but RE does focus on cruisers heavily.

Another thing I noticed is the fastest growing segment is the dual purpose bikes. This would likely be what most first time on road buyers might like. Its what I would buy if I were going to buy an on road motorcycle. RE offers a couple, HD offers none.

To me the dataset itself proves that HD themselves seem to be the cause of there own slow demise by not catering to what the market is buying and not attracting first time buyers.

I suspect that this indicates that owners are keeping their bikes for years and not upgrading or replacing them.
Sales of new motorcycles in the US overall are less than half what they were at the pre-recession peak and that was a long time ago.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I suspect that this indicates that owners are keeping their bikes for years and not upgrading or replacing them.
Sales of new motorcycles in the US overall are less than half what they were at the pre-recession peak and that was a long time ago.

Yes but Touring peaked in 2010 while almost every other class continues to increase. (more new sold than old taken off the road)

So even if there getting older, the touring models aren't even being sold at replacement levels while all the other categories are, it seems Touring are the ones leading the sales decline.

 

[Exhaustgases]

Any company that makes anything, should just do a study and see what older item that they made in years gone by that was popular.
And re make that item. And not like GM did with the HHR and the SSR as they were not even close. I'm not just talking cars and trucks either. They need the what ever look exactly like the original. Sure do some small internal upgrades but that is all. And keep the plastic out of it, if it didn't have that originally.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

Any company that makes anything, should just do a study and see what older item that they made in years gone by that was popular.
And re make that item. And not like GM did with the HHR and the SSR as they were not even close. I'm not just talking cars and trucks either. They need the what ever look exactly like the original. Sure do some small internal upgrades but that is all. And keep the plastic out of it, if it didn't have that originally.

Thinking like that would require common sense and I'm not seeing much of that lately from car, truck or motorcycle companies....
Sadly, the EPA won't allow them to remove plastic as plastics allow that tiny bit better mpg (CAFE).

 

[SC Maintenance]

Any company that makes anything, should just do a study and see what older item that they made in years gone by that was popular.
And re make that item. And not like GM did with the HHR and the SSR as they were not even close. I'm not just talking cars and trucks either. They need the what ever look exactly like the original. Sure do some small internal upgrades but that is all. And keep the plastic out of it, if it didn't have that originally.

A toaster in 1960 was between $10 and $20. Thats like $100 to $200 today. No one will pay that amount of money for a toaster today. Plastics are fine when used properly. My Xterra has a 18 year old plastic intake manifold still working fine.

Its the same thing with motorcycles. I remember back before I could even drive I got a motorcycle magazine from somewhere and it had a real cool advertisement for an 883 Roadster for $3995. It had a James Dean looking guy riding it. I thought it was cool. I was like 14, and somehow I remember $3995. Thats $12K now. Can you buy a Harley for $12K? Looks like RE has models for half that much. If they have some plastic at that price so what.

 

[Finklejag]

 

[wander2039]

Funny how many YouTube video's popped up after reading this. A video on just about every state and the bad Harley dealers. I know Gall's Harley closed here in KC around 2020, think sales had been declining and she retired. No one I know has a Harley now.. 10 years I knew around 5 at least but all of them have sold since then. Older and just aged out. I've never found them appealing. Here at the local coffee shop they show up and tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious. They can do what they want but with my past concussions loud noises kills me.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

A toaster in 1960 was between $10 and $20. Thats like $100 to $200 today. No one will pay that amount of money for a toaster today. Plastics are fine when used properly. My Xterra has a 18 year old plastic intake manifold still working fine.

Its the same thing with motorcycles. I remember back before I could even drive I got a motorcycle magazine from somewhere and it had a real cool advertisement for an 883 Roadster for $3995. It had a James Dean looking guy riding it. I thought it was cool. I was like 14, and somehow I remember $3995. Thats $12K now. Can you buy a Harley for $12K? Looks like RE has models for half that much. If they have some plastic at that price so what.

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

I can still see my Grandmothers bright shinny chrome toaster, she owned it with pride, never had any crumbs in the bottom, she even had a nice cover for it. Her home was spotless and so was her toaster, made to last and almost a work of art made with pride in the USA!

My plastic intake on my used Police Crown vic is a known issue and is an expensive repair when the water line cracks over 100K The part with labor cost almost more than the car is worth...

I once owned a 1995 Volvo T5-R that came factory with glass ( not plastic lens ) Hella, halogen headlights. To this day even with modern LED those headlights were the best and would light up up a road like a high school football stadiums field on a Friday night!

I think about and remember this glass headlamps as I'm using one of those plastic restore headlight haze remover kits, Im actually saying bad words as i'm hand wet sanding plastic lenses wondering why did things go from glass to plastic?

Don't get me started about how good a Classic Coke is in a glass bottle!

I'm old, even my Tonka trucks were metal as a kid in the 70's. I walk down the toy isle now at Walmart, Toaster isle too and nothing but a sea of China Plastic Crap! No, i'm not a fan and would pay more for better made goods and is why I purchased a new Volvo in 1995, Now even Volvo is China owned Plastic...

 

[kballowe]

What this thread needs is more Harley pictures.
That's me, holding up a sign.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

What this thread needs is more Harley pictures.
That's me, holding up a sign.

View attachment 324728

Needs more pictures and some Harley Love, I think we got some haters...