Why Royal Enfield is Destroying Harley Davidson

[TacoFergie]

Sold Victory's, then Indians for a few years after retiring. The Victory's were superior bikes.

They are solid. Heck, there a number of hard parts on the Challenger/Pursuit that cross reference to the Cross Country. Performance wise, they put the smack down on HD back in the late 2000's and 2010's. Back when cracking 100whp on an HD was a big deal and a decent amount of work, a Victory could do that with an air filter, slip-ons and a tune. Knock on wood, I've never had a problem outside of maintenance. Oil Changes, tires, brake pads, brake fluid air filter and suspension bearings (my fault, didn't know they needed periodic greasing).

My close friend who owns a dealer in my area still says the best long distance bike he's ridden is the Victory Vision despite how it looks. Even comparing to new BMW's he sells. He's been around nearly every brand for the last 60 years and is the 2nd generation business owner. The way Polaris pulled the plug on Victory left such a bad impression on him that he dropped Polaris completely when it happened. Keep in mind at that time when Polaris was in Spirit Lake, IA, were less than 2 hours away. He wasn't the only dealer that did that either. Now one of the brands he carries is CFMoto and he sells 3-4 times more SXS's and ATV's than the nearest Polaris dealer.

 

[SOUNDMAN5000]

I had a 2005 Harley Davidson Sportster (Roadster 1200R.) Loved riding it. Sold it after I retired from the Navy. Maybe I will get another one, some day.

It's disheartening to me the state of HD currently. I hope things change.

I don't think Royal Enfield is taking the motorcycle scene by storm or taking any appreciable business away from Harley. If someone wants a Harley, they aren't going to consider anything else and there's still plenty of people like that out there. I have only seen a handful of Enfield's in my area, new or old. Though I do live in NW Iowa, not a huge city. If any brand is up and coming, it's CF Moto, just not in the cruiser world. For new riders that want a new bike, it's hard to beat. Their most expensive bike isn't even $11k and they are making some attractive bikes that appeal to the younger crowd. They are also innovating and releasing new products faster than any other brand. A close friend of mine that sells and services CF Moto (alongside BMW and Beta) has seen very few issues with CF Moto bikes.

Rant - My distain toward Harley isn't because of the motorcycle, it's because of 80% of the people that ride them that I have met or been around. Many of them have an elitist attitude. Even my own uncle who rides Harley "because it's American made" casts shame towards my Victory because he thought it was "foreign". Despite telling him it was built in Iowa by Polaris (the same state we both live in), he still thinks it's lesser than. Ironically he is also quite proud of his Polaris being US built and at the time headquarters in IA, some skulls are just too thick. lol He's also the type that has a Harley wardrobe likely worth as much as my bike and there's plenty more people I know like that. Half the Harley riders in my area don't wave unless it's another Harley and I've even seen some start to put out an arm to wave only to retract it once they notice I'm not on a Harley or the group I'm in doesn't have a Harley, that tells me everything I need to know about what type of person that is. I don't get that from any other riders on other brands. Then you have the Harley bros that have off-road lights for a headlight blinding everyone on the road, rev all over town, take off from stop lights like a bat outta hell thinking their big and bad. But then I line up next to a guy like that at a stop light and they take off like they have eggs on their lap. The few guys like that I have raced, freaking hate when they get beat by a big old non-Harley bagger. lol I don't care if I win or loose, I just like having fun and I'll give credit to a fast bike no matter the brand! The Harley alphabet soup is funny too, FLCHTUCIABCD or whatever. What even is that? Wouldn't Road Glide or Street Glide be easier to say? Sorry, rant over. lol

Now that's not every HD rider I've met. The few people I work with that have them and the HD riders I've met while on motorcycle road trips have been fantastic people. They love riding and love to talk with people that enjoy riding. Those are the people I like being around regardless of what they ride. Heck I know a couple people at work that went from Harley to Indian and they can't imagine going back, especially taller riders. One coworker quit a local Veterans MC because the other riders wouldn't let it go after he got an Indian. Again, it's the people, not the brand. But sadly, thats the culture associated with the brand.

Me personally, I don't think new bikes offer anything revolutionary over most 10yr old bikes. The only thing new bikes have over older ones is integrated infotainment and some have electronically adjustable suspension. Which I find the latter would be a nice benefit, but not worth $30k plus IMO. Most 10-15 year old cruisers have ABS, cruise, fuel injection, 6 speed transmission, plenty of power and are plenty reliable all for $10k or less. Get a phone mount and helmet comm system, there's your GPS and music if it doesn't have speakers. Plus if I scratch my 10+ year old bike, it's a lot less painful than a new bike.

Here's my lowly old 2012 Victory Cross Country. I know it's inferior to Harley in many was since it doesn't vibrate, only has one hole for oil, doesn't leak said oil, sticks out from the rows of bikes everywhere it goes, has too many cams, doesn't have push rods, has too much leg room, has too much suspension travel and the bags/trunk are just too big. lol

View attachment 328898

Heck the old girl even gets used as a tool hauler at times (tools worth more than the bike lol) and goes grocery shopping often. The amount of storage on this thing is insane. At one time I think had the most combined storage on a motorcycle, may still hold that title?

View attachment 328899

Someone else posted a week or so ago a similar thought of "Half the Harley riders in my area don't wave unless it's another Harley".

Spring is in the air so I been riding my "Harley" this last week a good bit and as I ride I have been thinking about that other post like this recent post suggesting Harley Folks don't wave at non Harley riders...

I been thinking WAY more about my wave than I ever have... I'm not making excuses for any person or any so called "group of bike owners" but I kinda gotta call a bit of BS on the wave thing and being targeted to what brand of bike someone has.

I been riding a Harley 30+ years so I know Harley bikes however, when a bike is in the opposing lane of traffic heading towards me in that small amount of time before we pass I can honestly say, 90% of the time I can't tell if he is on a Harley, Indian, Victory etc.

In that quick moment I can sometimes normally tell if its a bagger or not but only recently with the new LED turn signals being built into the new model Street Glides and yes the unique modern Road Glide front I can now pick those out but other than that all I can tell is its a Cruiser or a Touring bike. IF I even see them at all in time to wave... Heck, I have even occasionally thought a moped was a motorcycle, Who cares the guy / girl is on 2 wheels and gets a wave from me less that 50% of the time as I simply don't wave at everyone for no reason except I don't see them in time waving back or my mind is some place else but its not me trying to figure out the brand of bike thats passing me in the opposite direction at 70 MPH...

People are people, I have received " BRAND" attitude when I walk into a Indian dealer with my Harley shirt on, who cares ? its a good way to start a conversation and is what I do as I got thick skin and I find I kinda like most all people and my tiny bit of friendly push back to that smart a$$ Indian parts guy resulted in me walking out that Indian dealers shop with a FANTASTIC discounted price on a new motorcycle Helmet and a handshake!

I few weeks back I get a email from Indian with 70% off some Indian clothing ( I love Indian clothing ) and own almost as much Indian clothing as Harley as I buy motor clothing based on price. I have not paid full price for Harley clothing in 29 years! I will buy it used on eBay but IF new IT must be 50%+ off at a rally or something. I like Indian stuff from the Logo, to the shirts to the bikes but I only own a Harley motorcycle at the moment.

I ordered a bunch of that 70% off Indian stuff from a beer Coozey to an $11 T-Shirt to a VERY cool Indian riding jacket that day one of riding I received a very interesting response from a Indian owner that could not process how someone getting off a Harley has a Indian riding jacket on...

It was a interesting response but ended being a very good interaction between (2) motorcycle riders, brand ending up being not important.

Again, NOT making excuses for bad behavior but MANY people are simple minded with "Tribal Mentality" be it a motor cycle brand to anything from a Moose Lodge to a Church Denomination and Family "Uncles". I had a Uncle that would loose his mind over his College Sports Team...

 

[TacoFergie]

In that quick moment I can sometimes normally tell if its a bagger or not but only recently with the new LED turn signals being built into the new model Street Glides and yes the unique modern Road Glide front I can now pick those out but other than that all I can tell is its a Cruiser or a Touring bike. IF I even see them at all in time to wave... Heck, I have even occasionally thought a moped was a motorcycle, Who cares the guy / girl is on 2 wheels and gets a wave from me less that 50% of the time as I simply don't wave at everyone for no reason except I don't see them in time waving back or my mind is some place else but its not me trying to figure out the brand of bike thats passing me in the opposite direction at 70 MPH...

On the interstate, I don't expect to get a wave back. Between focusing on the road, zoning out jammin to music, eyeballing a map, maybe talking on a comm set or whatever. I get that and I have done that too.

My experiences with lack of waving back or the start to wave but pull back is during in town riding below 40mph. One particular area in town that is kind of the popular cruising loop is where it's worst is about 30mph. I'll see a guy or a group wave at some HD riders a block or two up, not wave at me when I wave or other bikes when they wave. But if there's a group of HD's behind me, then those guys will wave enthusiastically once I'm passed. Then again, the loop as we call it is kind of a beauty pageant showing off your car or bike and those guys are typically the ones that put 500 miles a year on their bike and just have an HD as a sort of status symbol. I'm not butt hurt about it, but it's disrespectful in my book. Unfortunately, I have to go through that loop just to go home or run errands.

The fact that you roll around with other motorcycle brand apparel on an HD is great! I'll bet some of the loyalists take a second look. lol I bet you're a hoot to shoot the breeze with. To be honest, I don't know if I have any motorcycle or automotive branded apparel?

 

[TMoto]

All this talk is giving me the itch to get my old Shovelhead roadworthy again...

And I don't care what you ride, just ride safely and keep the rubber side down.

 

[02SE]

The wife and I went for a ride on a couple of our Sportbikes today. The places we stopped there were guys on Harleys. They all said hello, and didn't seem to have any US vs THEM mentality. We mentioned that earlier in the week we had been at a Harley dealer considering buying one. Three days later and we still haven't heard back with an OTD price. It's almost like they don't really want to sell a bike. It seems bizarre to us...

 

[Bonz]

I fail to see the us versus them attitude here in Colorado as well. Folks riding bikes are part of the same culture. Harley's used to be associated with a different crowd, however this isn't that time and place. We all hang out at the same places at sometime or another and always get a wave and wave back when riding my ZRX 1200.

 

[TacoFergie]

All this talk is giving me the itch to get my old Shovelhead roadworthy again...

And I don't care what you ride, just ride safely and keep the rubber side down.

Get that thing goin and get her back on the road! If I had more time and space, I’d love to have an old bike to tinker with. I love the simple (electronics wise anyways) old bikes like that.

I fail to see the us versus them attitude here in Colorado as well. Folks riding bikes are part of the same culture. Harley's used to be associated with a different crowd, however this isn't that time and place. We all hang out at the same places at sometime or another and always get a wave and wave back when riding my ZRX 1200.

When I’ve traveled through CO, I never noticed it either. But that’s a different parts of the country than most areas regarding motorcyclists. I’ve gotten the feeling that most people love the outdoors in CO and support each other pretty well in any form outdoor activities. Plus there’s a lot of great roads out there. In NW IA, there’s very few decent roads. If you’ve traveled through Nebraska, it’s not much different than that except a little more hilly.

 

[Bonz]

Get that thing goin and get her back on the road! If I had more time and space, I’d love to have an old bike to tinker with. I love the simple (electronics wise anyways) old bikes like that.



When I’ve traveled through CO, I never noticed it either. But that’s a different parts of the country than most areas regarding motorcyclists. I’ve gotten the feeling that most people love the outdoors in CO and support each other pretty well in any form outdoor activities. Plus there’s a lot of great roads out there. In NW IA, there’s very few decent roads. If you’ve traveled through Nebraska, it’s not much different than that except a little more hilly.

I gather from what you're saying that folks in Northwest Iowa and Nebraska on Harleys "snub" those not on a Harley? Etiquette and manners have nothing to do, imo, with how beautiful a state is to ride through or not. It's an attitude so leave them alone, give them the one finger salute, they don't deserve any more than the gas fumes they are breathing if that is truly the vibe.

 

[goblin]

Just tortured some electrons in chips to do some meaningless calculations and speculations. Basically - if we take the average income of a person and the average price of a Harley, we get some sadly predictable data.

Below:
- Price/Income ratio is what part of an average yearly salary a Harley costs.

- "Ease" of buying is a random value of how easy it is to buy a Harley. We take 10 as the original "How easy is it to buy one" value in 1950 (could be any value really, 10 is as random to pick as 100). We oversimplify and don't take any other factors and expenses.

Era	Price/Income ratio	How easy is it to buy
1950	~18%	10
1970	~15–20%	~9–11
1990	~20–25%	~7–9
2025	~30–35%	~5–6

So in 1950 a Harley cost on average 18% of a typical yearly salary. Today it's up to 35%.
Even if an yearly salary went for Harleys and nothing else, they are on average twice more expensive today than 75 years ago.
Of course, this average price is skewed by the uber-expensive models that exist today and didn't exist back in the time.

So it went from relatively accessible transportation to luxury. Different clients, in different quantities.

The short story: Royal Enfield is simply the new Harley. What Harley used to be decades ago. Up to them on which way they'll want to go from there.

 

[Hootbro]

Just tortured some electrons in chips to do some meaningless calculations and speculations. Basically - if we take the average income of a person and the average price of a Harley, we get some sadly predictable data.

Below:
- Price/Income ratio is what part of an average yearly salary a Harley costs.

- "Ease" of buying is a random value of how easy it is to buy a Harley. We take 10 as the original "How easy is it to buy one" value in 1950 (could be any value really, 10 is as random to pick as 100). We oversimplify and don't take any other factors and expenses.

Era	Price/Income ratio	How easy is it to buy
1950	~18%	10
1970	~15–20%	~9–11
1990	~20–25%	~7–9
2025	~30–35%	~5–6

So in 1950 a Harley cost on average 18% of a typical yearly salary. Today it's up to 35%.
Even if an yearly salary went for Harleys and nothing else, they are on average twice more expensive today than 75 years ago.
Of course, this average price is skewed by the uber-expensive models that exist today and didn't exist back in the time.

So it went from relatively accessible transportation to luxury. Different clients, in different quantities.

The short story: Royal Enfield is simply the new Harley. What Harley used to be decades ago. Up to them on which way they'll want to go from there.

While the price/income ratio has doubled, the per capita disposable income is like 4X when adjusted for inflation.

 

[TacoFergie]

Just tortured some electrons in chips to do some meaningless calculations and speculations. Basically - if we take the average income of a person and the average price of a Harley, we get some sadly predictable data.

Below:
- Price/Income ratio is what part of an average yearly salary a Harley costs.

- "Ease" of buying is a random value of how easy it is to buy a Harley. We take 10 as the original "How easy is it to buy one" value in 1950 (could be any value really, 10 is as random to pick as 100). We oversimplify and don't take any other factors and expenses.

Era	Price/Income ratio	How easy is it to buy
1950	~18%	10
1970	~15–20%	~9–11
1990	~20–25%	~7–9
2025	~30–35%	~5–6

So in 1950 a Harley cost on average 18% of a typical yearly salary. Today it's up to 35%.
Even if an yearly salary went for Harleys and nothing else, they are on average twice more expensive today than 75 years ago.
Of course, this average price is skewed by the uber-expensive models that exist today and didn't exist back in the time.

So it went from relatively accessible transportation to luxury. Different clients, in different quantities.

The short story: Royal Enfield is simply the new Harley. What Harley used to be decades ago. Up to them on which way they'll want to go from there.

This makes it even more financially difficult for consumers considering the random monthly bills that most people pay nowadays. In the first 3 era's, there wasn't a $150+mo cell phone bill, $50+mo internet bill, $20-$80+mo streaming service bills that many have and all the other random subscription/monthly bills we've had and become accustomed to in the last 20 years that are just hoovering up expendable funds. Sure you had land line, possibly cable TV or other odds and ends bills. But it likely didn't add up to the random monthly bills we pay currently.

 

[Hootbro]

This makes it even more financially difficult for consumers considering the random monthly bills that most people pay nowadays. In the first 3 era's, there wasn't a $150+mo cell phone bill, $50+mo internet bill, $20-$80+mo streaming service bills that many have and all the other random subscription/monthly bills we've had and become accustomed to in the last 20 years that are just hoovering up expendable funds. Sure you had land line, possibly cable TV or other odds and ends bills. But it likely didn't add up to the random monthly bills we pay currently.

That overlooks the early years when most households were single income ones and the disposable income was a lot less. When women entered the workforce in mass in the early 1970's, it became a two income household and men's wages did not drop 50% like the myth is told but more like less than 10%. That made more disposable income available since there was now two income cost sharing.

I would argue even with the cost to income ratio doubling for a motorcycle nowadays, it is still easier on average to swing the payment for one today than it was back then.

 

[goblin]

While the price/income ratio has doubled, the per capita disposable income is like 4X when adjusted for inflation.

Cost of living comes out of disposable income doesn't it? Housing, education and healthcare? Healthcare alone is like 10x up compared to 1950, adjusted for inflation.

I'm not wearing pink glasses about the past, people were paying through the roof in 1950 for things that we buy easily nowadays (food, clothing, housewares), but at the end of the day they were spending a smaller part of their income on essentials compared to today. And they had less frivolous distractions to purchase, it is true.

 

[alarmguy]

…

Here's my lowly old 2012 Victory Cross Country. I know it's inferior to Harley in many was since it doesn't vibrate, only has one hole for oil, doesn't leak said oil, sticks out from the rows of bikes everywhere it goes, has too many cams, doesn't have push rods, has too much leg room, has too much suspension travel and the bags/trunk are just too big. lol

View attachment 328898

Heck the old girl even gets used as a tool hauler at times (tools worth more than the bike lol) and goes grocery shopping often. The amount of storage on this thing is insane. At one time I think had the most combined storage on a motorcycle, may still hold that title?

View attachment 328899

interesting, your post sounds like a motorcycle rider who looks down on other bikes.
Unlike you, I won’t knock a victory because I almost bought one around 2011 or 2012
It was a Cross Roads then I found out Polaris was shutting down victory.

One thing for sure, the hardware, paint, mechanics of the Harley are superior and they should be for the price. That’s why you have three separate holes for oil. Engine, transmission, and primary. At this time, I also noticed things like the brake cables, lack of plastics, and overall finish superior but again, it’s a luxury product at a luxury price

Beside your negative baloney my 2014 Road King does not have an oil leak, in fact the bottom is bone dry. Over 30,000 miles it has never had a repair or warranty work.
Just maintenance like brakes and tires. Rear tire will last 14,000 or more miles front tire 20,000.

 

[alarmguy]

This makes it even more financially difficult for consumers considering the random monthly bills that most people pay nowadays. In the first 3 era's, there wasn't a $150+mo cell phone bill, $50+mo internet bill, $20-$80+mo streaming service bills that many have and all the other random subscription/monthly bills we've had and become accustomed to in the last 20 years that are just hoovering up expendable funds. Sure you had land line, possibly cable TV or other odds and ends bills. But it likely didn't add up to the random monthly bills we pay currently.

This we can agree on.
The bottom line is today’s young people priorities are not motorcycles but other things in life.
The money flows out of their paychecks faster than it arrives with the endless subscription services that they sign up for.

Much coddled, young people and motorcycles are just too inconvenient, having no air-conditioning, get wet in the rain and your girlfriends or fiancé’s parents will not let her get on a bike

It’s not just motorcycles, there is an endless list of hobbies and things from the past that young people are no longer interested in.

 

[KrisZ]

Some of you guys should watch it, before you know it, you’ll be yelling at kids to get off your lawn

 

[thetricky]

As a millenial that has been riding in some form, dirt or street, for 26 years, imo the issue with HD is that they were the only company to never try and lure me in. Whether it was lack of advertising aimed at my demographic, no models that appealed to us, or the seemingly closed-up culture, they never tried. That leads into my impressions of the community, which are not good. HD riders are the least likely to wave, think they own the rules of the road and are generally not pleasant to be around. Now I know this isn’t the case with all of them, this has simply been my general experience in my area. Hard to have an interest in a brand when they mostly shun you if you aren’t on their bikes!

I ride to work everyday and park with about 100-150 bikes, depending on weather, and in 11 years I have seen quite a drop in cruisers in general. Smaller, touring, and sport-nakeds are now the overwhelming majority of bikes, even supersports have largely disappeared. Times change, tastes change, and Harley just hasn’t kept pace.I would have loved for them to have kept Buell going as I believe they had something good with those, though that’s just my .02c.

 

[Ronsant]

The closing and consolidation of HD dealer locations is mostly because of the decline in motorcycles generally. As has been stated in this thread, motorcycling numbers are declining. Mostly, it’s an older demographic that is aging out, and not enough young people are coming into the sport/ hobby to make up the difference.
I see it in my job, automotive is growing, and motorcycle division is slowing down, especially in the US. A little better in Europe.

So the conclusion is we have more and more brands coming i to the business, and less and less customers available to buy the units.
HD Will be around for a long time, but sales numbers will result in fewer dealers. HD will still have a lot of dealers, relative to say, Moto Guzzi, or Suzuki, but less than they have now.

 

[TacoFergie]

interesting, your post sounds like a motorcycle rider who looks down on other bikes.
Unlike you, I won’t knock a victory because I almost bought one around 2011 or 2012
It was a Cross Roads then I found out Polaris was shutting down victory.

One thing for sure, the hardware, paint, mechanics of the Harley are superior and they should be for the price. That’s why you have three separate holes for oil. Engine, transmission, and primary. At this time, I also noticed things like the brake cables, lack of plastics, and overall finish superior but again, it’s a luxury product at a luxury price

Beside your negative baloney my 2014 Road King does not have an oil leak, in fact the bottom is bone dry. Over 30,000 miles it has never had a repair or warranty work.
Just maintenance like brakes and tires. Rear tire will last 14,000 or more miles front tire 20,000.

I don’t look down on any bikes and many of my comments about my own lowly old Victory or jabs at Harley was simply sarcasm. Regardless of Polaris shutting off the Victory line-up abruptly, it’s hard to say they didn't make a statement in the industry. I believe Victory was picking up steam right when they shut it down. I bought mine after Polaris already announced the Victory brand was going away.

As you know, it’s the always the owners that give a brand or vehicle the reputation or stigma. If I mentioned a guy wearing a polo tucked into jean shorts with crew socks and white new balance shoes…you know I’m referring to the stereotypical car show Corvette owner that claims his car is 1 of 1 and barely puts 500 miles a year on the car. Of course, that’s not generalizing ALL corvette owners, but we all know the stigma. Sadly for Harley, there is a stigma that precedes the type of owners as well. Again, not all of them, but you know the ones I’m talking about. We’ve all met them.

As for quality, there are some high points for HD. But they aren’t without some issues. The M8 wasn’t perfect in the early years, but they got the issues figured out after a couple years if I recall. HD paint is certainly some of the best in the industry for motorcycles. But my paint on my 2012 Victory is holding up quite well. Heck, I’ve got 42k of hard riding miles on my 106 in the Victory without a single issue either. Cams, slip-ons, air filter and tune for about 112whp for about half that mileage. Single sump makes oil changes easy and quick. Drain, remove filter and fill with 5qts, 10-15min and I’m done. My buddy has 3 Victory’s, a Cross Country and Kingpin with around 80k each and never an issue, both cammed with supporting mods and making around 110whp like mine. His 3rd is a Supercharged Cross Country (formerly Zach Ness’s personal bike) with around 160-170whp with about 30k miles, stock internals with only an upgraded clutch. That’s a wildly fun bike to ride!!! Those 106’s and the transmission are solid units. They take a lot of abuse. Though I will admit the transmission does feel like it belongs in a tractor with how clunky it is. lol

 

[goblin]

...I believe Victory was picking up steam right when they shut it down...

Wait... didn't Victory simply become Indian? Well, not "become", but wasn't all the good yummy Victory stuff eventually seen at Indian?
I loved Victory, it was an amazing initiative.